Stunts Forum

Well it is simple. IMO this point system it's too radical and I guess some of you are not very happy with it.

This kind of system (15-11-8-6-5-4-3-2-1) makes easier the job of the top drivers and there are only nine pipsqueaks with points. I personally like the point systems which gives points to the 70% or 80% of the pipsqueaks, for example 16/20.. more than the half because to reach points for a newbie or a not advanced pipsqueak is very important. If you make it so hard they will leave and it is probably one of the problems of the community: the motivation.

I know it was chosen by most of us but I call you to re-think it and vote again.
Please vote in this poll and let's see if we can make a more fair system for the most of us. I know Zak is with me in this. ;)

I think you are a bit late but nonetheless:

I think the 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 system is very unfair for pipsqueaks who miss the first few month because they can't catch up even IF you don't count the 2 worst results.

*It also applies to pipsqueaks who can't race on all tracks for one reason or another *

Example

pipsqueak A: 8,8,8,8,8,2  1,8,8,8,8,8,8   (2 worst deleted : 88 points)
pipsqueak B: -,-,9,9,9,9,1 ,2,9,9,9,9,9,   (2 worst deleted :84 points)

pipsqueak B missed 2 races (vacations or he/she joined to late) and is cleary better than A but even if the 2 worst is deleted rule is in efect he/she has no chance to win.I think I tried to explain this over and over again and to prevent that problem you need some bigger differences at the top like in the current system.

Another reason is that I don't want to see someone at 2nd place 'win' the month against the 1st placed player only because he got the leading time points. 9+2 vs 10...      I sitll think a monthly win gives a lot of prectige and it would be a bit hilarious if someone who is not the winner gets more points.

Don't get me wrong: those are fine points to give some bonus points or even decide ranks on the lower places,but they should not decide the month winner IMO.

Enough reasons why 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 is definatly one of the worst systems you can think off.

BTW I have to add that I was wrong in 1 point:

Of course the NASCAR 175 ........... point system is the most craptistic I have yet to see on planet earth :) If you miss 1 race there you are completly lost  :)

You are worng in another point

15-11-8 is more unfair for pipsqueaks who miss the first few month. It is not for top pipsqueaks, but the most of pipsqueaks aren't top. We must think a point system for the middle class and don't be so elitist.

This about A got 11-11-11-11-11 and B joins the competition in 6th race and achieve 6-6-6-6 (only two places behind!!) he never will have a chance! It is very unfair.

BTW here is some information about 'Poll theory'

Imagine we have 6 voters A,B,C,D,E,F

And 1,2,3 Options:

1)Nascar
2)Current system
3)ISA system

If we just make a poll we might get:

Nascar: 3 votes,current system 2 votes ISA 1 vote...

So Nascar is the best system in that case?

Let's think it over in a different way:

Imagine all 6 persons could divide 100 points at all options,high points being good and low points being craptistic ;)

                        Nascar        Current           ISA
A                          60               30                10
B                          50               30                40
C                          80               10                10
D                           0                70                30
E                            0               60                 40
F                            0                10                90

                          190             210                220


So in this case if you add all 'feelings' of the voters together NASCAR would be the worst system and ISA would be the best! (which was last in the poll) with the current system being 2nd in both cases!

Argammon this is a poll, the most voted system will be the most wanted for the voters. Do I have to explain what a poll is?

'You are worng in another point

15-11-8 is more unfair for pipsqueaks who miss the first few month. It is not for top pipsqueaks, but the most of pipsqueaks aren't top. We must think a point system for the middle class and don't be so elitist.

This about A got 11-11-11-11-11 and B joins the competition in 6th race and achieve 6-6-6-6 (only two places behind!!) he never will have a chance! It is very unfair.'


If someone is ALWAYS 2 places behind he does probably not deserve to get a top place,and if someone joins in 6th race he will probably not win nowmatter what.

I can't see how 15-11-8 is bad for pipsqueaks who aren't top pipsqueaks! Those can't reach the topracers regardless which point system you use as you said they are not elitist!
So if they are behind by 20 or 40 points at the end of the year,does it matter?

The only reason I see is if a pipsqueak who got the quality to be the top should have the chance to keep up if he joins to late/misses few pipsqueaks -> and in this case he can if he gets some multiple 15's !

I really can't see a chance/option how a pipsqueak who is constantly behind should have a better chance to win? please enlighten me if you do.

Just vote in the name of God, Virgin Mary and all the angels!!  :lol:

I think that's really blasphemy :/

Well not to get me wrong:

I am of a different opinion than AR but I respect his.... like Always ;)

I hope it's appreciated if I give reasons why I think X is better than Y without thinking of it as an attack .........

Stop changing the topic please. You said what you think (in a lot of messages but you did it). Let the others expose what they think. :)

To me system used in "Champ Car" is the best:
20-16-14-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1, where 12 drivers get points.

I voted for 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

Current point system is very unfair because the value of 3rd-6th places are very small compared to their real value.

Don't miss races if you want to win the championship, if the overall result counts for you, that's all.

The original points system is the best.

Being a fan of the classic point system I had to vote for it. Although I know it's not the best. But I can handle it best.

A simple system for the simple minded :mrgreen:

Hm i voted for 10 9 8 ... 1 system, so that top10 means something - being tenth with no points sucks :) so as long as top 10 get points i would be content i think current system is ok, simply add i point to each postition, so that tenth gets points too or take mingva's top-dozen system. :)

so long satanziege

I voted for the 15-11-8... system because :
  1/ it was my proposal during our long discuss on the chat with Zak, Akoss and Argy.
  2/ like Argy, I want to see the winner have more points than the 2nd+2 points of LDT. That means 3 points of gap between 1st and 2nd minimum.

But, I can understand that points are important for new pipsqueaks.
I was angry to have no points 3 times in 2002 on ISA comp because I finished 7th... :?
And I remember how happy and proud I felt when I had my 1st point on the last race with my 6rh position. :D

So, here is a new proposal :
25, 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Gap 1st-2nd = 5, gap 2nd-3rd = 4, gap 3rd-4th = 3, gap 4th-5th = 2, then gap = 1.
15 pipsqueaks will have points.
And gap between 5th to 15th is only 1 point between each position, that would make interesting fight for those places in the championship.
Let the top 5 do their fight, and all those "middle level" pipsqueaks (as Argy says :P ) like me could race with ranks like in "old" point system.
What everyone think about it ?

One last thing : 175, 170, 165, ... point system is not good : I finished 4th last year on the overall scoreboard just because I missed no race, but it was not my real performance : I was only 7th in "pro" scoreboard with classic 10, 9, 8... point system.

The end of the contest is drawing near,therefore i wanted to revive this topic - has any decision been made so far if the point system will finally change?

welly welly well, seems the most of us voted for the classic point system. In order to know what the comp admin thinks about it I ask: Zak what did you voted? what do you think? what could you do?

Votes:

Classic: Akoss, satan, jtk, me + 2 pipsqueaks more
2003 style: 1 pipsqueak
Present system: Krys, Argammon? (only a guess) + 1 pipsqueak
IRC 2003: Mingva?

If you really want the 10,9.... system ( I have yet to hear a good reason)
We have to get rid of leading time.I guess noone wants to see the month winner without leading time losing against the second placed pipsqueak with 2 bonus points.

I agree, but it was obvious that everything about the points is changed: For example: think about a system like 2003 and where they leading point bonus is 5 points. If we change from this system to the "Classic" of course it should change the leading point too.

But you are right it is good to remember it. Leading point maybe should back to the 1 - 0.5 - 0.25  :?:

I think the most important aspect is the one Magic Stunts Oracle mentioned in it's first post: that not only top pipsqueaks should get point, dual board in last season was nice for this, but as it was dropped this year i would prefer any point system that gives points down to drivers at down to tenth or even 15th postition. it was very demotivating for me last year in pro to work hard to stay in top 10 and only get amateur points... so what about simply adding 3 points to each postion in the current system, so that drivers down to 12th get points? with currently 20 drivers in first month, there would be still enough without any... and it wouldn't change the rules as much at the end of the first month as changing to a point system with totally different spacings?

No more words then! Note that only those who are against it are top pipsqueaks seems that some of them doesn't want to win in a more fair way. As you all know I'm not a begginer and a point system like this (10-9-8-7...) would not be so good for me because I should fight every month to keep the overall position but it's better this way. A competition is enjoyable if it is fair

Stunts Oracle,what you are doing can be called to be an unfair way of arguing about matters.

It's not like you are the last court in deciding what's fair and whatsnot.
Your argument is going nowhere:

Drivers who are behind are behind.And if you can get more far behind because the point differences are bigger you can catch up more quickly again because of the same reason.

The whole issue has nothing to do with the top drivers wanting to win easily but with the slower drivers wanting to get points which seems to be the only reason they voted for 10,9,8.

But if the slow drivers want more points you can very well take satanziege's last suggestion and just take the current system and add points to it.

Hi.

Time to clear things up...
I read all your ideas and suggestions, and then I made a decision.
I hope most of you'll like it, I'll explain now why I have chosen this method.

The new, and this season's FINAL scoring system is what Mingva preferred:
20-16-14-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 and then from 13th place down 0 pts.

Why?

A point system must apply to many rules and criterias:

A. it must fit fine to the number of the pipsqueaks
B. it must fit to the bonus systems
C. it should make possible to upkeep a realistic seasonal rankings for EVERY pipsqueak.
D. it shouldnt honour any pipsqueak group much more than the others
E. It must provide so called "fighting margins"

lets examine:

A:
Since I didnt expect this many pipsqueaks, the 15-11-8 system with honouting the top9 pipsqueaks was designed for maximally 18 pipsqueaks/month. We have already surpassed that limit, and I feel that'll do the same some more months again. The 10-9-8... system would be sutiable for pipsqueaks up to 20, but the best is this one honouring the top 12, which allows about 24 pipsqueaks, a limit which we are possibly not going to pass.

B:
Some might dont agree, but I think that the current +2/+1 LTB system brings fun to the pro pipsqueaks, and is well designed. I didnt really wan to change it. This is a big con for the 10-9-8 system, which is the most fair system, but fairly unsuitable for any bonus system.

C:
This means that if a lets say "talented" newbie comes, who can reach places 8-10 without team help, and then unfortunately leaves after some races - well this pipsqueak should be also awarded the correct position according to his skills. This is possibly the easiest criteria from the 5, both 10-9-8 and 20-16-14 fit it well with the current pipsqueak number we are going to possibly have.

D:
Well this is a very hard question. Clearly the 15-11-8 was simply awarding way too much for the top pipsqueaks, while they have the LTB in surplus. Yes, in my view since the real top drivers are very close in skill they must have an additional way to compete and this is the leading time. If you want to be on the real top you have to drive regularly.
Then the 10-9-8 idea came, which is clearly the most fair from this view. Why I didnt choose that system? One reason is criteria B, but more importantly crit. E. Jump and read.

E:
This is the most important. There are people born to compete, who fight for every single position. But most of the pipsqueaks need also motivation to race regularly and send time often - and so make this whole thing intresting and exciting. Points represent this motivation.
Lets name some pipsqueak groups: top-dogs, pros, amateurs, newbies.
In detail:
top dogs: this consists of maximum 3 maniacs. Really skilled pipsqueaks. On most of the tracks some pipsqueak from this group wins, but also usually the top 3 consists of these pipsqueaks. Whats their motivation then? One is LTB, but also for these pipsqueaks only winning brings satisfaction. That +4pt
compared to the seciond place gives the motivation.

pros: regular, skilled pipsqueaks. They rarely fit into the top 3 places, are usually on the places up to 6-8th, and a big time gap is after them. With this system up to the 7th place theres 2-2 pts difference between places so you could say theres no motivation for them to advance places. But then you forgot that this group is far the most motivated from all the pipsqueaks. I havent made statistics yet, but from the 70-100 replays I get a month about at least the half is made by these pipsqueaks. This year it seems to be even stronger to fight for these places, since the competition level will be very high here, so I must say the point system suits fine.

amateurs: they send times regularly, but they are still learning the tricks and the skills. The finish around the 10th place. Last year I expected many pipsqueaks from this vategory, thats why I used the dual league. I was a bit wrong, because when someone stays for a longer period, then he advances in skill very quickly, and then he is a pro not an amateur. So the dual-legue was divided too low to the second league. With this point system their motivation should be advancing fast and achieving the top6 and so earn +2 compared to the +1 gaps below. Also they are skilled anough that they dont deserve nay points if they finish below place 12.  :)

newbies:
they are those who just drop by o race for fun. Their times are far below the pros, but they still want to have fun! The fught with some amateurs for earning 1-2 points on the 11-12th place is their privilege.

and so you can say what I have against the 10-9-8 system: none of these motivations apply. A big amount of motivation is lost in exchange of fair rankings. But I feel you are never motivated enough for racing.

Hope it'll go fine with this system...
Zak

I am absolutely agree it seems fair. We needed the words of a non-top dog pipsqueak to confirm I'm not Robin Hood :)

Great desition Zak, you think in all the pipsqueaks and not only in the "top fight".

Maybe somebody will hate me but this is a fair play.

Why did you choose a method which was only selected by one driver???!!! Totally can't understand you! And if somebody's opinion, why Mingva's???!!! Totally disagree. Had the poll have any meaning then???!!!

:twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

Akoss: Don't care about the system, the best will always win the whole competition... Only try to be that certain best...  :!:

I'm satisfied with the new rules.

Rotoi is also satisfied? Fine but both of us being satisfied is a bit strange considering the discussion early on this page.

OT:No you weren't robin spood.For me it was propaganda :)

Quote from: "Akoss Poo"Why did you choose a method which was only selected by one driver???!!! Totally can't understand you! And if somebody's opinion, why Mingva's???!!! Totally disagree. Had the poll have any meaning then???!!!

this wasnt an official poll, it wasnt posted by me. Because of this topic I could see what requirements and wishes the pipsqueaks have, and then set up a decision which seems the best compromise for everyone.

Zak said:

Quotethis wasnt an official poll, it wasnt posted by me. Because of this topic I could see what requirements and wishes the pipsqueaks have, and then set up a decision which seems the best compromise for everyone.

Aaaaah it wasn't an official poll... then why did it influence you then???!!!

Perhaps Zak is a good emperor  who wants to see his pipsqueaks happy :)

Quote from: "satanziege"Perhaps Zak is a good emperor  who wants to see his pipsqueaks happy :)

Then why didn't he choose the most popular choice (10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1)???

QuoteThen why didn't he choose the most popular choice (10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1)???

Read again Zak's post. He wrote there why 10-9-... isn't suitable for ZCT.

Quote from: "Mingva"Read again Zak's post. He wrote there why 10-9-... isn't suitable for ZCT.

It IS suitable. It works fine in big competitions, it worked in Kalpen contest, a system based on that point system worked well in 2001 and 2002, the pipsqueaks won who deserved it the most. It is the most fair, and THE BEST FOR COMPETITIONS WHERE THE NUMBER OF pipsqueaks IS FLUCTUATING because of pipsqueaks like you, who doesn't race seriously each month. The point differences are the smallest with the classic system.

Akoss,do you think the majority decisions are always the best?
No.And the reason is that most people haven't analyzed the specific problems deeply enough but just vote for the think which feels best at the first glance.

And that's the reason why most democracies usually don't feature referendums.It simply makes not sense to make referendoms about who has to pay how much % tax or similiar issues ;)

Quote from: "Anonymous"Akoss,do you think the majority decisions are always the best?
No.And the reason is that most people haven't analyzed the specific problems deeply enough but just vote for the think which feels best at the first glance.

And that's the reason why most democracies usually don't feature referendums.It simply makes not sense to make referendoms about who has to pay how much % tax or similiar issues ;)

Rotoi or Zak?

I have an user account, why I should write with a annonimous guest?

Quotethe pipsqueaks won who deserved it the most.

And what's against 20-16-... system then? With it pipsqueaks, who deserves the most, will win contest too :P But now we're talking about points to weaker pipsqueaks (like me), and system used in Cart is the best for now.

alanrotoi: my vote was for current (present) system  :P  :D

'The point differences are the smallest with the classic system.'

Are they?

No!:               1st place    10,1 points
                    2nd place   10 points  
                    3rd place    9,8 points
                    4th place    9,5 points
                    5th place    9,1 points
                    6th place    8,6 points
                    7th place    8,0 points
                    8th place    7,3 points
                    9th place    ..............

SO you think small point differences are good?

Alanrotoi: Because sometimes it takes ages for pages to load and in that case I don't waste my time to log in.

Quote from: "Anonymous"'The point differences are the smallest with the classic system.'

Are they?

No!:               1st place    10,1 points
                    2nd place   10 points  
                    3rd place    9,8 points
                    4th place    9,5 points
                    5th place    9,1 points
                    6th place    8,6 points
                    7th place    8,0 points
                    8th place    7,3 points
                    9th place    ..............

SO you think small point differences are good?

LOL
I would love this system!
But don't overstate please. 1 point difference was used during long long years and it always worked well.
Zak says he hates arguments... and he creates new system each year (=new big argument each year). WHY?

Quote from: "Argammon"Alanrotoi: Because sometimes it takes ages for pages to load and in that case I don't waste my time to log in.

I only answered Akoss's question about who wrote his previous message. He asked "Rotoi or Zak?". It wasn't something against you.

My view is that LTB works too good: people create almost impossible times at the beginning of the month. Do you think it's healthy for the comp? Just imagine: a newbie comes and he can see cruel times on the scoreboard. If he's not enough self-confident, then he turns back and won't race anymore there. I'm happy that there was no LTB when I arrived to ZakStunts...

To Mingva, Alain, Alan, etc. who will insult me because of this message: don't say me any provocative things, only your opinion about this topic. Thanks!

I still don't know how are the rules here, but..... who cares? :lol:

Yeah, Alan, that's right! Don't care about the rules just race! :)  :)  :)

Oh noooo....  :shock:  I'm Otto's student now. What can he teach me?  :P

road manners, road manners... :)

Oh, nooooo... *sigh* :(

It would be interesting to re-calculate the results of each seasons with the different pointsystems.

I think the word you're looking for is "uninteresting". It would be uninteresting to re-calculate the results of each season with the different pointsystems.

Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 06, 2015, 10:29:55 AM
I think the word you're looking for is "uninteresting". It would be uninteresting to re-calculate the results of each season with the different pointsystems.

Maybe for you, Mr. Artist.

I guess the lovers of numbers would be interested in it - at least if the most addicted one makes those stats.