Stunts Forum

Southern Cross Stunts Trophy => Southern Cross Stunts Trophy => Topic started by: Duplode on August 23, 2009, 02:57:22 AM

Title: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 23, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
(Original title: Track 2...)
...is being designed right now. First draft was almost two minutes long so I'm shortening it a bit. I still haven't decided which car will be used...  ::) although my shortlist has only two viable options at the moment.  
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 24, 2009, 07:12:20 AM
Track open to visitation. Despite the fact I can assure you that this will be the slowest race of the season, it is also a sort of public opinion test - your reactions to it will be one of the factors in some design decisions further down the road. So, if you hate the thing, be vocal about it... but try and race it at least once! ;)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Chulk on August 24, 2009, 10:14:58 AM
(Original title: Track 2...)
No, it was track 1...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0Jm8LimqDuw/SeJdULq9MmI/AAAAAAAAA5o/xPmemORARDU/s400/Master+Of+Puppets+%28Back%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on August 24, 2009, 08:35:22 PM
Just completed my first lap. Actually had a nice ride on slow corners then pushing on max in speedy straights. I'd say track is more enjoyable than previous one. Perhaps of slowly car? Only terrain is miserable, so no nice views from car window  >:( 
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: zaqrack on August 24, 2009, 09:50:26 PM
ü(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0Jm8LimqDuw/SeJdULq9MmI/AAAAAAAAA5o/xPmemORARDU/s400/Master+Of+Puppets+%28Back%29.jpg)
probably this album has the most Stunts references ever :)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 25, 2009, 05:15:45 AM
I'd say track is more enjoyable than previous one.

1UP  :)

Only terrain is miserable, so no nice views from car window  >:( 

The ugly layout is intentional. Since the title track/track title is rather at odds with such a slowish Audi course, something had to be aggressive in the design  ;D By the way, those scattered track elements are actually most of the rejected first draft for the track...
Title: two questions
Post by: Mingva on August 25, 2009, 09:37:12 PM
Is this allowed, or out of staying on track rule:

(http://i32.tinypic.com/b7cguq.jpg)



Can I enter corkscrew left/right in both ways or just as shown with green arrow?

(http://i27.tinypic.com/2nlcqhf.jpg)
Title: Re: two questions
Post by: Duplode on August 26, 2009, 05:20:50 AM
Is this allowed, or out of staying on track rule:

(http://i32.tinypic.com/b7cguq.jpg)


1. I had never stopped to think about that;
2. My rules actually do not say cork undersides are part of the track proper;
2. Weren't it for this observation I'd never hesitate about having it as valid;
3. In fact, I thought of that trick during the design;
4. No OWOOT competition so far outlawed it (I looked for and found an IRC example for reference);
5. It seems pointless to add an annoying restriction on such a small thing that may just be a graphical design oversight;
6. Therefore I'm allowing it.
7. It took only a really short while for me to get knocked off my high horse on the subject of my "perfect" rule set, and the long excuses above are here just for making that all the more obvious  :)


Can I enter corkscrew left/right in both ways or just as shown with green arrow?

(http://i27.tinypic.com/2nlcqhf.jpg)

I assume you're asking whether you need to follow the yellow line strictly (green line) or only start to "loop" the cork halfway through it (red line). If so, both lines are valid, as long as you get upside down and leave by the other side of the red wall.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on August 26, 2009, 08:14:05 AM
Great to know :) Then I'll improve my result by one more second ::) My goal is time under 1:20.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: zaqrack on August 26, 2009, 09:18:36 AM
Great to know :) Then I'll improve my result by one more second ::) My goal is time under 1:20.
so probably I should get myself together and drive :)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Krys TOFF on August 26, 2009, 10:15:57 AM
ü(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0Jm8LimqDuw/SeJdULq9MmI/AAAAAAAAA5o/xPmemORARDU/s400/Master+Of+Puppets+%28Back%29.jpg)
probably this album has the most Stunts references ever :)
Sure : Orion and Damage Inc. teams.
Also, any old driver coming back or any newcomer is Welcome Home and in the end we're all Disposable Heroes. ;D
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 27, 2009, 12:13:10 AM
ü(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0Jm8LimqDuw/SeJdULq9MmI/AAAAAAAAA5o/xPmemORARDU/s400/Master+Of+Puppets+%28Back%29.jpg)
probably this album has the most Stunts references ever :)
Sure : Orion and Damage Inc. teams.
Also, any old driver coming back or any newcomer is Welcome Home and in the end we're all Disposable Heroes. ;D
Not to mention we used to have a Master of Puppets :D ;D justkiddingsorryicouldntresisttothisinnapropriatecommentetcetc
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Chulk on August 28, 2009, 01:12:13 AM
ü(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0Jm8LimqDuw/SeJdULq9MmI/AAAAAAAAA5o/xPmemORARDU/s400/Master+Of+Puppets+%28Back%29.jpg)
probably this album has the most Stunts references ever :)
Sure : Orion and Damage Inc. teams.
Also, any old driver coming back or any newcomer is Welcome Home and in the end we're all Disposable Heroes. ;D
Not to mention we used to have a Master of Puppets :D ;D justkiddingsorryicouldntresisttothisinnapropriatecommentetcetc

I wonder what should not have been...
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: zaqrack on August 28, 2009, 09:01:14 AM
I wonder what should not have been...

ZakStunts 2007 ruleset :)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 28, 2009, 07:17:49 PM
Seems I will have to race a bit any time soon to understand how you're getting these nice times  :)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Chulk on August 29, 2009, 08:31:09 AM
I wonder what should not have been...

ZakStunts 2007 ruleset :)
Maybe you're right...
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 29, 2009, 04:44:17 PM
Taking a suggestion by Mingva, I put up a YouTube video showing the most common rule restrictions of OWOOT/TWOOT racing and linked it from the rules page. As usual, feedback is welcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRxDK_Yy1Fw#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRxDK_Yy1Fw)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: zaqrack on August 29, 2009, 05:31:01 PM
a very useful and nicely scripted video!
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on August 29, 2009, 05:34:21 PM
Thanks for video. Now the rules set is 99% clear ;D
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mark L. Rivers on August 29, 2009, 10:41:03 PM

Highly professional, indeed...
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on August 30, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
Leading Times on Battery are incorrect  ;)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: CTG on August 30, 2009, 12:10:33 PM
Leading Times on Battery are incorrect  ;)

Yes because the leader's name is not CTG. ;D Kidding.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on August 30, 2009, 04:14:14 PM
Leading Times on Battery are incorrect  ;)

I introduced new mistakes, I see  ::) Fixing it for good this time.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mark L. Rivers on September 10, 2009, 05:00:05 PM

I don't think I'll be able to improve my time. This is not tactic (I usually don't use this kind of expedients...), I would have to re-drove the whole race and August (sweet August... ::)) is finished long...
Seeing LTB should be mine I could be aim to a useful podium, better a 2nd place in order to run for the Trophy... But the real main problem will be how I'll be able to race in the next rounds, keeping in count there will be a "quite important" race in ZakStunts next month that I wouldn't miss...  So I will have to find some time to race hard in the 3rd round next week, but it will be really difficult... Let's see...

Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 12, 2009, 04:03:02 AM
You can still win this round if nobody else attacks your time, Mark...  ::) Action, everybody!
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mark L. Rivers on September 12, 2009, 07:06:22 AM
You can still win this round if nobody else attacks your time, Mark...  ::) Action, everybody!

As I said, I can't re-drive the whole race but yesterday I saw again my current best replay understanding  I can maxout a bit my final. I need 30 minutes for it, and I'll spend them just not to risk to win without my best effort...  ;)
Anyway, speaking seriously, I think that I have not so many chances to win this race...  ::)

Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 14, 2009, 02:42:22 AM
Final update with results expected for Brazilian midnight. Release of the new track may take a bit longer, as the attempt to finish the design ended up with me scraping most of the draft I had, and I feel rather uninspired right now. All should be sorted out by tomorrow afternoon, though.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 14, 2009, 07:38:20 AM
Results uploaded!

Only two replays on last day... :-\

In any case, congratulations again to Mark for another bleeding edge lap! (I always need to spend maybe double the usual amount of time reviewing his replays until I get convinced they are 100% legal  :D) Other than Mark, who built an useful early gap, overall standings are a mess right now, with several drivers drawn on points.

And now, since I lost any hopes of a healthy night of sleep, I will try to finish the new track. Watch out for any insomnia after-effects in it!  :D

Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mark L. Rivers on September 14, 2009, 11:26:35 AM
Thanks for the congratulations, Duplode. It has been another interesting track this one, and it's a pity there wasn't a more large pool of drivers engaged in it.
As usual I spent some time to analyze the replays and... well, thrilling race indeed! Check the images below and watch how the race has been really balanced, at least until the first 55 seconds. And Zak's race demonstrates one more time how his potential is high: best time in 4th section and 2nd best time in 5th, 6th and 7th section.  :)   I knew I hadn't made a very good race in the middle, but I didn't think to have lose so much! Fortunately (for me), I drove quite well in the last 20 seconds of race... ;)

Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on September 14, 2009, 06:34:33 PM
Well, Mark won because of bridge trick and...

(http://i31.tinypic.com/2ljjn6w.gif)

 :( :-\ :-X

I should learn to exploit those small bugs to win a race. Anyway, I'm proud of my result and rpl itself.

P.S. On 0:53.20 is even a better view that three wheels are off the road.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 14, 2009, 07:50:22 PM
Mark's replay at 53.20 from a different camera orientation:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f283/Duplode/scr0102_mlr05320.png)

From this point of view one sees there are a few pixels of the right front wheel barely on the road. When I specified "F3 overhead camera" as a means of verification, I did not specify zoom or horizontal angle settings, just the height of the camera (I only identified this oversight as a possible issue when checking replays for the first race). Therefore, if the car can be seen as being TWOOT from at least one position of F3 camera at maximum height I must consider it as valid.

(With Audi there is an additional difficulty in that a glitch sometimes makes the front wheel graphics to change position in relation to the rest of the car as the game is played. If you can't reproduce this screenshot after extensive rotation of F3 camera, restart Stunts and try again).
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on September 14, 2009, 09:33:33 PM
Quote
C.2 During a lap, pipsqueaks must keep at least two wheels on or over the track proper.
But where's a wheel on track? I see it only touches the edge of asphalt on this zoomed and rotated image :P But if you're allowing such wheel position then I use it for next race.
I know, it's really annoying to argue and complain after the race. Well, at least I can brag about being the 1st until this key point :D


Quote
Verification of the C.2 rule will be performed using the F3 view directly overhead of the car.
I thought it's obvious about F3 view - on start line, arrows all to top and three to right, no zoom in or zoom out:

(http://i27.tinypic.com/28jzl78.png)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 14, 2009, 09:53:16 PM
Quote
C.2 During a lap, pipsqueaks must keep at least two wheels on or over the track proper.
But where's a wheel on track? I see it only touches the edge of asphalt on this zoomed and rotated image :P But if you're allowing such wheel position then I use it for next race.

The decision is based on the curvature of the road at that point. By the tip of the nose of the car, the track boundary has a straight segment about 70 pixels long; then it breaks and moves one pixel upwards (that is the break you can see on the zoomed part). Between the break and the first wheel pixel there are about 36 pixels (I'm using a screen ruler for convenience). Since we're moving towards the centre of the screen, the length of the straight segments of the road boundary must be increasing; and since 36px is significantly shorter a distance than 70px, at least a few pixels of the wheel must be on the road.

Quote
Verification of the C.2 rule will be performed using the F3 view directly overhead of the car.
I thought it's obvious about F3 view - on start line, arrows all to top and three to right, no zoom in or zoom out:

That would be the best way to standardize it, given the unreliability of camera angles in Stunts. Given the way I written it, however, I found it more likely that people would take the lenient reading rather than the restrictive one (as I don't mention explicitly the camera must be pointing forward); that's why I won't standardize it. Net result is that when you're in doubt about a close call of TWOOTness you can either spend some time rotating the camera trying to find a valid angle or spend about the same amount of time changing slightly your trajectory with RH so that there are no doubts.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on September 14, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
Oh gosh  :-\  OK, I won't argue with you anymore. It's your competition, you dictate the rules and bring decisions. It's up to you what allow and what not. But only by comparing replays (not results) you can say who keeps with rules. As I wrote earlier, only bridge tricks and that turn cut brought victory to Mark :(
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 14, 2009, 11:11:52 PM
You're rightful in arguing whenever you feel the rules aren't being properly followed, Mingva, and I'm obliged to either present a consistent reasoning for the decisions based on the rules (which I hope to have done this time) or take the decisions back. I only do not quite understood what you meant with:

But only by comparing replays (not results) you can say who keeps with rules.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on September 15, 2009, 07:59:45 AM
Just watch Zak's or my replay. Is there any reason to think about legality of our rpls? We're trying to have ALL two wheels on/over track. And you wrote I always need to spend maybe double the usual amount of time reviewing his replays until I get convinced they are 100% legal >:(

You think you're right, I think I'm right. But as I wrote you decide. I just feel frustrated about different interpretation of rules.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mark L. Rivers on September 15, 2009, 11:56:56 AM
Hi Mingva. This is the first time I speak directly to you and I think it’s polite to start this comment with a salute or something similar. Seeing the comment wherewith you spoke to me for the first time (topic: “Most winning cars for driver” in Stunts Chat) I know you have not the same idea, but evidently we are quite different.

Well, before Duplode wakes up, let me say some words about your considerations.

Sure I didn’t expect congratulations from you after this race, since you didn’t express any congratulations after the Round 1 (Force Ten track). But I didn’t imagine you were so piqued after your second defeat.
Anyway, evidently, you didn’t check neither my winning replay with the Indy, otherwise you would have relieved that I interpreted the rules exactly I did with the Lancia. More, I interpreted the rules of this contest in the same way I interpreted the rules of other OWOOT contests I took part, that is: there’s no a standard F3 view that you can assume as absolute view in order to establish the real position of a car and so the validness of a replay. So, every OWOOT (or TWOOT) contest manager, usually checks the replay moving the F3 camera in order to determine if a replay is valid or not.
If you understood that the standard F3 view proposed by the program was the reference view, I’m sorry, but you went over what it’s written in the Southern Cross Trophy rules.

Anyway, a less speculative analysis of the race shows that you’re wrong when you say:

only bridge tricks and that turn cut brought victory to Mark

First of all, “bridge tricks” cannot be put beside the sizeable lot of words you spent about the validity of my replay. “Bridge tricks” are absolutely known features of Stunts and the expert drivers currently availed them. If you didn’t use them (real strange thing you didn’t since you took part in a lot of races in the past) as I did with Lancia in Round 2 and with Indy in Round 1 (but you didn’t check that replay as I said before), that’s your defect. Sure saying that “Bridge tricks” concurred, jointly to a supposed rules violation, to bring the victory to me, it’s not so correct, because in this way it seems you suggest that you didn’t win due to elements out of your control. Maybe it would be more correct saying that you lose even because you didn’t avail (or exploit, as you wrote) a known Stunts feature as “bridge tricks” are.

Secondary, instead concentrating your attention on my wheels, that ARE “on or over” the track, even if only partially (no word in the rules says that the whole wheel must be on or over the track), you should pay attention to your race and your mistakes. And if you check your replay just in the same point you put your blow up lens on my replay, you’ll see what you can see in the images below. The comparison shows that your path was quite far from the best path. You had 4 wheels on the track and your car is quite far from the edge. Your path didn’t permit you to close enough the trajectory before to arrive on the ice, and this forced you to reduce your speed in order to keep your right and so approaching better the next left large curve.

So, finally, I think that instead to say “only bridge tricks and that turn cut brought victory to Mark”, you made a better impression saying something similar to “Even if I’m not totally agree with the rules application, Mark won because, in this race, he drove better than me, availing the bridge tricks and choosing in the crucial part of the track a path that permitted him to conserve a higher speed for the rest of the race”.

I wish more luck for you in the next rounds, and, I hope soon to tell you “Well done Mingva, you drove better than me deserving the victory”.
Anyway, above all, I trust in a your more easy approach to the races. We are fellows in a special world, so act together to give life to sane challenges and not to inspire contentions.
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Mingva on September 15, 2009, 01:40:27 PM
Oh, Mark, you misunderstood me. I'm not piqued, I'm not angry at you, I'm not rude on you or Duplode, I'm not... Well, it's better to say I love you all  :-* :)

Please read my initial comment again:
I should learn to exploit those small bugs to win a race.

That's why I'm frustrated. Because I'm too weak, because I think differently. But we all are learning every time, so I will be more stronger next race. And yes, I'm not so good and unable to do bridge tricks. It's not bad you used it, it's 100% legal, and I think you know by yourself it added an advantage and was main factor for your deserved win. Well, you was too good on Battery, I had no chances to beat you. Congrats ;)
Title: Re: Battery
Post by: Duplode on September 15, 2009, 04:19:41 PM
MIngva: the only thing that left me concerned about this discussion was that at some moments there appeared to be implications of double standards on rule application. Taken in context, your latest post makes it clear that wasn't your intention, though, so I feel we can carry on peacefully. After all, there is another race to be held already  :)