Stunts Forum

Stunts - the Game => Live Races => Topic started by: CTG on October 20, 2012, 09:31:12 PM

Title: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 20, 2012, 09:31:12 PM
Date is still unconfirmed, but I hope to see a race tomorrow evening. What about an Indy round?
Title: Re: 2012-10-21 (Le Stunts 2012, 2nd round)
Post by: Chulk on October 20, 2012, 09:42:44 PM
I'm in (if fever allows it)
Title: Re: 2012-10-21 (Le Stunts 2012, 2nd round)
Post by: Duplode on October 20, 2012, 10:15:49 PM
I'm in as well (if the tinkering I'm currently doing doesn't screw up my Fedora installation. I'll try to control myself  :D).

20:00 GMT again? (DST starts this evening here, so I'd better be careful with that). 
Title: Re: 2012-10-21 (Le Stunts 2012, 2nd round)
Post by: CTG on October 20, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Three pipsqueaks, not bad. BJ / dreadnaut / Argammon / Rotoi?

Track is almost ready, will be uploaded soon. It's recommended to study the last third of the circuit: you have to find the correct braking point (after a short powergear section).
Title: Re: 2012-10-21 (Le Stunts 2012, 2nd round)
Post by: CTG on October 20, 2012, 11:13:11 PM
Track is almost ready, will be uploaded soon. It's recommended to study the last third of the circuit: you have to find the correct breaking point (after a short powergear section).

Here you are! :)
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: dreadnaut on October 21, 2012, 08:04:02 PM
Not 100% sure, but I might be here for 20:00 GMT (in an hour). Didn't have time to try the track though ;D
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Duplode on October 21, 2012, 08:15:05 PM
I should be around by then too. Now on to FP1   :D
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: dreadnaut on October 21, 2012, 10:19:18 PM
Updated track!
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 21, 2012, 10:34:06 PM
...
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Duplode on October 21, 2012, 10:34:55 PM
yay
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Chulk on October 21, 2012, 10:35:14 PM
Done!
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: dreadnaut on October 21, 2012, 10:35:46 PM
replay!
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 22, 2012, 02:00:50 AM
Like I said in the chatroom: the only question is if BJ would be able to complete 10 laps or not.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Duplode on October 22, 2012, 04:59:52 AM
Results!

1. CTG, 9 laps, 7:25.90
2. Chulk, 9 laps, 7:36.85
3. Duplode, 9 laps, 7:43.00
4. dreadnaut, 7 laps, 7:28.55 (+ 0:27.00 penalty time)

Fastest lap: CTG, 0:47.15 (lap 2)

(Laps measured at the dirt-asphalt boundary where the paths rejoin.)

---

One thing that caused me some doubts when compiling the results was that CTG and dreadnaut stopped their replays before 8:00.00. Before the race I had tacitly assumed that we had to drive the whole eight minutes, and stopping earlier meant retirement, as in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. We did not, however, mention such a rule anywhere in these threads; not to say it would cause issues of its own - e.g. what is the point if you can cross the line at 7:30, stop the car and just wait for the time to run out? For those reasons I didn't account for it here. We probably should make that point clear before the next round, though.

---

Analysis (for graphs see the attached .xls):

Code: [Select]
LAP SPLITS
CHU        CTG        DRE        DUP
1 01:01.00 00:57.20 01:14.75 01:04.15
2 01:51.55 01:44.35 02:14.55 01:54.95
3 02:41.70 02:35.30 03:18.45 02:45.30
4 03:30.65 03:22.50 04:23.95 03:36.70
5 04:20.80 04:10.45 05:24.40 04:25.85
6 05:11.10 05:00.05 06:27.50 05:16.25
7 05:58.50 05:47.50 07:28.55 06:04.95
8 06:49.00 06:36.10         06:53.40
9 07:36.85 07:25.90         07:43.00

LAP TIMES
CHU        CTG        DRE        DUP
1 01:01.00 00:57.20 01:14.75 01:04.15
2 00:50.55 00:47.15 00:59.80 00:50.80
3 00:50.15 00:50.95 01:03.90 00:50.35
4 00:48.95 00:47.20 01:05.50 00:51.40
5 00:50.15 00:47.95 01:00.45 00:49.15
6 00:50.30 00:49.60 01:03.10 00:50.40
7 00:47.40 00:47.45 01:01.05 00:48.70
8 00:50.50 00:48.60         00:48.45
9 00:47.85 00:49.80         00:49.60

GAPS TO LEADER
CHU        CTG        DRE        DUP
1 00:03.80 00:00.00 00:17.55 00:06.95
2 00:07.20 00:00.00 00:30.20 00:10.60
3 00:06.40 00:00.00 00:43.15 00:10.00
4 00:08.15 00:00.00 01:01.45 00:14.20
5 00:10.35 00:00.00 01:13.95 00:15.40
6 00:11.05 00:00.00 01:27.45 00:16.20
7 00:11.00 00:00.00 01:41.05 00:17.45
8 00:12.90 00:00.00         00:17.30
9 00:10.95 00:00.00         00:17.10


Some comments:
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Chulk on October 22, 2012, 06:33:47 AM
  • Chulk: nice finishing touch in doing the final lap under 48s!
Hadn't it been for that awful cork in lap 8 that took me out of rhythm for that part, I would have done the last 3 of them under 48 very likely, I was "in the zone".

Curious fact: there was only one of us whose 1st half of the race (not counting lap 1) was faster than his 2º half, and it was CTG. And he was also the one who had the smallest difference between these two "sections"

CTG: 3:13,25 (laps 2-5) and 3:15,45 (laps 6-9). Diff: 2,20
CHU: 3:19,80 (laps 2-5) and 3:16,05 (laps 6-9). Diff: 3,75
DUP: 3:21,70 (laps 2-5) and 3:17,15 (laps 6-9). Diff: 4,55
DRE: 3:09,20 (laps 2-4) and 3:04,60 (laps 5-7). Diff: 4,60

One more thing I'd like to mention as I find it quite curious too. My 2 best laps are the only ones in which I didn't RH'ed...

Edit: Thanks for the stats, D!
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: BonzaiJoe on October 22, 2012, 01:13:44 PM
Looks like a great race - shame I couldn't be there.  Quite a convincing victory by CTG...

In my opinion, this shouhld be an endurance race, playing to 8 minutes (or 9?), and then the one who has come the furthest after 8 minutes wins. I don't know the rules of Le Mans though.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: dreadnaut on October 22, 2012, 02:15:41 PM
If someone stops earlier, I suppose it's their problem. I had to, in order to upload my replay within 12 minutes, but that left me less time to drive. The choice was between a late penalty and driving fewer track tiles.

I think the way we ranked the first race works fine: first number of laps, then the number of seconds driven in the last, incomplete lap —until the end of the replay, if shorter than 8 mintes. If two results are very close, we can check the actual position along the track at the end of the replay, and who drove farther wins.

The race is about distance: we can use seconds to approximate, but laps and tiles are the main metric.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Chulk on October 22, 2012, 08:03:08 PM
The race is about distance: we can use seconds to approximate, but laps and tiles are the main metric.
I agree. I thought it was about driving the longest possible distance in 8 minutes, not only the maximum number of laps and laps were just used as a mean to measure distances...
It was not the case here, but imagine a smallest time difference (like in only the last 3 laps between me and CTG): what would happen if CTG continued driving until the 8 minutes complete and I used those 30 secs to slightly improve my last lap and finished lap 9 before him but only racing 7:35 secs in the replay...

Using the same Le mans criteria someone mentioned before, reaching the last straight faster than the rest doesn't get you the victory unless you finish the race and go through the finish line... stopping earlier than that means you DNF
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 23, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Curious fact: there was only one of us whose 1st half of the race (not counting lap 1) was faster than his 2º half, and it was CTG.

Just as expected, running out of nerves.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 23, 2012, 01:20:55 PM
Btw:

(http://beerplaza.com.vn/en/Pictures/Kasteel%20donker.jpg)
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: dreadnaut on October 23, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Using the same Le mans criteria someone mentioned before, reaching the last straight faster than the rest doesn't get you the victory unless you finish the race and go through the finish line... stopping earlier than that means you DNF

I don't like the idea of DNF, because of the second 12' limit. If you want to finish within that deadline, you might have no choice but to drive less than 8'.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 23, 2012, 04:58:28 PM
Or you can deal with the penalty after every late seconds.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: BonzaiJoe on October 23, 2012, 05:00:03 PM
Using the same Le mans criteria someone mentioned before, reaching the last straight faster than the rest doesn't get you the victory unless you finish the race and go through the finish line... stopping earlier than that means you DNF

I don't like the idea of DNF, because of the second 12' limit. If you want to finish within that deadline, you might have no choice but to drive less than 8'.

Or just use less replay handling? I don't think I understand the problem.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: CTG on October 23, 2012, 06:06:25 PM
Using the same Le mans criteria someone mentioned before, reaching the last straight faster than the rest doesn't get you the victory unless you finish the race and go through the finish line... stopping earlier than that means you DNF

I don't like the idea of DNF, because of the second 12' limit. If you want to finish within that deadline, you might have no choice but to drive less than 8'.

Or just use less replay handling? I don't think I understand the problem.

Probably you don't. I think a newbie like dreadnaut needs a lot of RH to avoid crashing.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Chulk on October 23, 2012, 06:49:54 PM
Probably you don't. I think a newbie like dreadnaut needs a lot of RH to avoid crashing.
Tracks don't have many points where a mistake is a crash... 1/3 of the time RH is a lot. Also, it depends on how much you force yourself. I'm sure we all can do an 8 minute replay completely NoRH if we take enough care not to hit the walls.
Everybody knows it's limits and we all try to stay within them to complete the 8 minutes.
Anyway, I have no problem in giving Dreadnaut or other newbies and extra min in the end or a head start so they can complete the 8 mins (This depending on the 8 min rule being compulsory or not)
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Chulk on October 23, 2012, 06:54:58 PM
So, to clarify. Things to make clear before next race:

- 8 minute replay is mandatory or not (if so, extra time for newbies?)
- What determines victory: fastest higher number of laps (not counting incomplete lap) or distance completed in total (counting incomplete lap)

Any of these 2 would have changed last race's result, so we should figure this out before next weekend
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: BonzaiJoe on October 24, 2012, 01:20:48 AM
So, to clarify. Things to make clear before next race:

- 8 minute replay is mandatory or not (if so, extra time for newbies?)
- What determines victory: fastest higher number of laps (not counting incomplete lap) or distance completed in total (counting incomplete lap)

Any of these 2 would have changed last race's result, so we should figure this out before next weekend

I'd say, definitely: 8 minutes is mandatory, and lap number + car position at 8:00.00 is the result.
Title: Re: Kasteel (Le Stunts, 2012-10-21)
Post by: Duplode on October 24, 2012, 02:44:23 AM
So, to clarify. Things to make clear before next race:

- 8 minute replay is mandatory or not (if so, extra time for newbies?)
- What determines victory: fastest higher number of laps (not counting incomplete lap) or distance completed in total (counting incomplete lap)

Any of these 2 would have changed last race's result, so we should figure this out before next weekend

I'd say, definitely: 8 minutes is mandatory, and lap number + car position at 8:00.00 is the result.

In terms of Chulk's questions, that is "Yes" and "Distance". My favourite option would be Yes/Laps, as opposed to No/Laps like we did in this round. Due to practical concerns, however, it might be better to settle for Yes/Distance. Rationale below...

I don't know the rules of Le Mans though.

Quote from: Wikipedia
To be classified in the race results, a car is required to cross the finish line after 24 hours. This has led to dramatic scenes where damaged cars waited in the pits or on the edge of the track close to the finish line for hours, then restarted their engines and crawled across the line to be listed amongst the finishers.

Adapted to our purposes, Le Mans rules mean (1) pipsqueaks must complete a lap at or after 8:00.00; and (2) results are computed at completion of that final lap in the usual way (number of laps, then total time). Ideally, I would stick to this rule set, as it is the least ambiguous one and the one closest to a real endurance race. Also, I believe it is the only sane way to have results measured by laps with mandatory 8min driving, as it is silly to complete the final lap at 7:30 and then drive half a minute just to stay within the rules. Such rules, however, introduce one extra problem: individual races can take anywhere from 8:00.00 to nine minutes or even more, depending on how long it takes to complete the final lap. In the real Le Mans one extra lap after 24h driving makes little difference; in our case, however, it does matter a lot (just think how nasty it would be to cross the finish line at 7:59 and not being sure whether it is over or not...). If we adopted these rules, I guess we would have to, at a minimum, extend the deadline to 13 minutes.

Given the difficulties with Le Mans rules, BJ's suggestion ("8 minutes is mandatory, and lap number + car position at 8:00.00 is the result") looks like an attractive alternative. There are possible ambiguities in figuring out who was ahead (different racing lines and shortcuts among the pipsqueaks, dual-way tracks, etc.), though such risks look small enough to be tolerable due to the nature of the races.

P.S.: Back on Sunday, CTG mentioned a rather interesting compromise solution: setting four checkpoints and basing results on completed quarter-laps. That would combine some of the advantages of both lap-based and distance-based approaches, at the cost of extra complexity.