Stunts Forum

ZakStunts - the Competition => Competition and Website => Topic started by: CTG on September 27, 2013, 11:09:45 AM

Title: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on September 27, 2013, 11:09:45 AM
It's never too early to ask...   ;)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on September 27, 2013, 11:43:50 AM
Melange plus Skoda. If I have to select one more, let it be the ZR1-GT3, though I haven't submitted a vote for it.

And let's remove the car bonus system.

Leading time bonus is also unnecessary.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on September 27, 2013, 12:39:37 PM
Melange

Obvious.

Skoda

No. Never say never, but it would be better in this case.

If I have to select one more, let it be the ZR1-GT3, though I haven't submitted a vote for it.

Good choice.

And let's remove the car bonus system.

Yeah, it would be better to have fix cars in a competition. Oh wait... USC is still offering that. :D

Leading time bonus is also unnecessary.

Back to the darkest time hiding era? ;D
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: dreadnaut on September 27, 2013, 02:23:51 PM
And let's remove the car bonus system.

Or at least 'dampen' the variations. Not sure how it was in previous seasons, but this year there was often one car clearly advantaged.

We could run a few simulations with different parameters and see what happens —Friker? :)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Duplode on September 27, 2013, 08:25:01 PM
Or at least 'dampen' the variations. Not sure how it was in previous seasons, but this year there was often one car clearly advantaged.

I am not so sure about that, for two reasons. Firstly, I feel that if there were three or four viable cars every race the permanent ambiguity would be exhausting. And secondly, if the variations are damped and bonus percentages get closer to each other the odds are that PG cars will win most races (for evidence, consider the the 2008 season). In any case, the simulations would be interesting to see...

(Note that the first reason is close to the well-known Akoss' objection to the bonus system. While I do like the system - it gives an alternative to people who can't stand the main car of the race, and the occasional multi-car races can be very interesting - I believe the drawback he points to is real, and worth considering.)



My votes: Melange and Lotus [Edit: and GT3, sorry :D]. The other three would be Speedgate, GT3 and F40. However, I (i) am in two minds about Speedgate; (ii) don't want to vote for my own car; and (iii) don't like the F40 quite enough to vote for it ahead of the other ones.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Chulk on September 28, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Melange, Speedgate, F40, GT3. Don't really know why, just felt it
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: dreadnaut on September 28, 2013, 11:53:59 AM
Where's CTG's Subaru? That's what I want to drive!
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on September 28, 2013, 10:19:43 PM
Where's CTG's Subaru?

In my D:\Install\Stressed\Stunts\ folder. ;D

(maybe in USC 2014)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on September 30, 2013, 09:23:35 AM
Btw is there a plan for something new in ZakStunts 2014? Maybe changing to some kind of PTB system? It's not suitable for USC (probably I won't use it in the next season), but it would be a lot more effective in a bigger competition.

Suggestion: keep the current system (+2 and +1), only change it from "leading" to "podium" time with some kind of multiplier. Maybe it could motivate the non-Biker pipsqueaks to collect some bonus, even if somebody sent an ultrastrong replay in the first few days.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on October 16, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
The poll should be restarted, some serious candidates will appear in the next two months... (Fiat Abarth 500 for sure)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on October 30, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
Btw is there a plan for something new in ZakStunts 2014? Maybe changing to some kind of PTB system? It's not suitable for USC (probably I won't use it in the next season), but it would be a lot more effective in a bigger competition.

Suggestion: keep the current system (+2 and +1), only change it from "leading" to "podium" time with some kind of multiplier. Maybe it could motivate the non-Biker pipsqueaks to collect some bonus, even if somebody sent an ultrastrong replay in the first few days.

Detailed analysis is coming soon.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on October 31, 2013, 11:15:30 AM
It seems a 'Stunts month' begins on the first day of a quiet days period, and ends around 8th-10th of the next (real) month.

The original reason to introduce LTB was to perpetuate the activity for the whole month. This worked more or less with the golden generation pipsqueaks (though I hated it that time as well), but it has ceased, we arrived to the point which was the case in 2002: the racing month is restricted to only ~10 days.

Do you think that it is still worthy to continue to give this useless bonus? Moreover, the season seems to be decided on the leading time bonus instead of gained racing points...
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Duplode on October 31, 2013, 02:35:43 PM
Moreover, the season seems to be decided on the leading time bonus instead of gained racing points...

That is a fact. It can be very hard to claw back a gap built with LTB, especially given the linear scoring system and that the three worst results are discarded (so that you can't even hope for a slip-up of your opponent to be of help). Would it be too far-fetched to have very small LTB (say, +0.5 and +0.25 points) instead?

(On the other hand, CTG's suggestion of +2 and +1 as podium time bonus could be interesting too - it, too, is a way to make leading time matter less. The detailed analysis will be interesting to see.)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 01, 2013, 01:11:57 PM
On the other hand, CTG's suggestion of +2 and +1 as podium time bonus could be interesting too - it, too, is a way to make leading time matter less. The detailed analysis will be interesting to see.

Ready for 2013, but it isn't informative at all. I'll do it for 2012, too.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 04, 2013, 05:27:22 AM
No PTB for ZakStunts as it would require excess coding. But I am open to reduce/drop LTB. Should we have a clean season for 2014 without any bonuses?
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 04, 2013, 08:45:50 PM
No PTB for ZakStunts as it would require excess coding. But I am open to reduce/drop LTB. Should we have a clean season for 2014 without any bonuses?

I'm okay with no LTB.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 10:11:19 AM
Btw what's the deadline for introducing a new car applicant for 2014?
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 08, 2013, 10:26:22 AM
let's say dec22!
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 10:28:02 AM
let's say dec22!

I hope the Abarth will be published before that. I'm going to apply with Subaru Impreza or Bugatti Veyron.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 08, 2013, 10:39:51 AM
What about using only the original cars in 2014 and playing without the time correction percentages, with a given car on the tracks?
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 10:48:13 AM
What about using only the original cars in 2014 and playing without the time correction percentages, with a given car on the tracks?

1, If you want to lose Melange...
2, No time correction and fixed cars? It sounds like USC.

Although I used to be against car bonus system, I started to like it lately (it's more fun without Superkart and Ford Ranger). Too bad we cannot have only fast additional cars (Melange, F40, McLaren, Speedgate, GT3).
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
On the other hand, check the car choices for each tracks:

ZCT 138 - Corvette (1-4), Audi (5-14, 16-17), LM002 (15)
ZCT 139 - Audi (1-14)
ZCT 140 - LM002 (1-12), Countach (13)
ZCT 141 - McLaren (1-9, 11, 14), Countach (10, 12), Lotus (13)
ZCT 142 - Lotus (1-12)
ZCT 143 - F40 (1, 3-5, 7, 9-10), Countach (2, 6, 8 )
ZCT 144 - GTO (1-3, 7-9, 12), GT3 (4, 6), Jaguar (5, 10), Indy (11)
ZCT 145 - GT3 (1-8, 13-14), Jaguar (9-12)
ZCT 146 - Carrera (1-4, 7, 10), Jaguar (5-6, 8-9, 11)
ZCT 147 - Melange (1-9), Lancia (10)

Mixed podium is rare, the car seems to be almost always "fixed" for top pipsqueaks.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 08, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
What about using only the original cars in 2014 and playing without the time correction percentages, with a given car on the tracks?

1, If you want to lose Melange...
2, No time correction and fixed cars? It sounds like USC.

Although I used to be against car bonus system, I started to like it lately (it's more fun without Superkart and Ford Ranger). Too bad we cannot have only fast additional cars (Melange, F40, McLaren, Speedgate, GT3).

1./ Melange can remain, since it is a traditionally used racing car. But if Melange is the price for using only the original cars, let it be.
2./ No, it sounds like any normal Stunts competition, USC should only be an example.
3./ The problem is that when a convenient (IMSA, Indy) car is available, somebody always steals its bonus improvement with sending one or two replays even if the given car is not exactly the right choice. That reduces the number of IMSA and Indy races - for example I can't remember having them this year after 10 completed races.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
What about using only the original cars in 2014 and playing without the time correction percentages, with a given car on the tracks?

1, If you want to lose Melange...
2, No time correction and fixed cars? It sounds like USC.

Although I used to be against car bonus system, I started to like it lately (it's more fun without Superkart and Ford Ranger). Too bad we cannot have only fast additional cars (Melange, F40, McLaren, Speedgate, GT3).

1./ Melange can remain, since it is a traditionally used racing car. But if Melange is the price for using only the original cars, let it be.
2./ No, it sounds like any normal Stunts competition, USC should only be an example.
3./ The problem is that when a convenient (IMSA, Indy) car is available, somebody always steals its bonus improvement with sending one or two replays even if the given car is not exactly the right choice. That reduces the number of IMSA and Indy races - for example I can't remember having them this year after 10 completed races.


1, Melange is essential. Yes, because it's my eternal favorite car.

2, But we have only 2 active competitions - and probably we won't have more (feel free to re-start AkossStunts, although the participation rate won't be high - even ZSC is suffering from the lack of pipsqueaks).

3, Melange = pseudo-IMSA (actually it's an IMSA with reduced wheel-base); ZCT 148 = Jaguar (90%); ZCT 149 = Indy?, you can create a track for that. However, the bonus blocking activity is really annoying - it should be limited to TOP 6 or 8 instead of 12.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 08, 2013, 11:54:42 AM
3.a In earlier years, there were 4 IMSA/Indy/Melange races per year. This year, according to your theory, it's only 2.9... and I think it is an optimistic estimation. Countach, Lancia and Acura also have a chance for being the ZCT 149 car.

3.b Bonus modification: only the top 3 should affect the bonuses, I think.

3.c Well, to make a compromise, I think then that the month-by-month recovery of unused car bonuses should be (much) slower for fake/cheat (non-original) cars.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 08, 2013, 12:02:53 PM
3.c Well, to make a compromise, I think then that the month-by-month recovery of unused car bonuses should be (much) slower for fake/cheat (non-original) cars.

What's the problem with custom cars? (Btw I don't like the name "cheat car" - as for me it belongs to Skoda Felicia, Lada Niva and Knight Rider.)

Some of them have better design than the original pack models. Handling? They fit into the game - maybe except McLaren (and formerly Ranger, Superkart).
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 08, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
What about using only the original cars in 2014 and playing without the time correction percentages, with a given car on the tracks?

1, If you want to lose Melange...
2, No time correction and fixed cars? It sounds like USC.

Although I used to be against car bonus system, I started to like it lately (it's more fun without Superkart and Ford Ranger). Too bad we cannot have only fast additional cars (Melange, F40, McLaren, Speedgate, GT3).

1./ Melange can remain, since it is a traditionally used racing car. But if Melange is the price for using only the original cars, let it be.
2./ No, it sounds like any normal Stunts competition, USC should only be an example.
3./ The problem is that when a convenient (IMSA, Indy) car is available, somebody always steals its bonus improvement with sending one or two replays even if the given car is not exactly the right choice. That reduces the number of IMSA and Indy races - for example I can't remember having them this year after 10 completed races.


1, Melange is essential. Yes, because it's my eternal favorite car.

2, But we have only 2 active competitions - and probably we won't have more (feel free to re-start AkossStunts, although the participation rate won't be high - even ZSC is suffering from the lack of pipsqueaks).

3, Melange = pseudo-IMSA (actually it's an IMSA with reduced wheel-base); ZCT 148 = Jaguar (90%); ZCT 149 = Indy?, you can create a track for that. However, the bonus blocking activity is really annoying - it should be limited to TOP 6 or 8 instead of 12.

top 6 is actually a good idea now that we seem to constantly have less pipsqueaks. Lets go for this.
on the other hand, I enjoy having custom cars and would much rather have more than less - but the bonus system is not stable enough to accomodate more.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 08, 2013, 01:52:28 PM
btw, I would like to include 3 existing custom cars based on your votes - so far it seems Speedgate, Melange, F40/Lotus - you seem to prefer fast cars :), and two new creations if they are good enough.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 14, 2013, 11:50:29 AM
A proposition to favor fast cars (without addiitonal analysis done yet): what if we would add as a rule, that the car coefficient bonus cannot drop below zero?

Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: alanrotoi on November 19, 2013, 02:58:38 AM
We can do it a year. We will have more indy + fast cars more often.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on November 19, 2013, 08:42:08 AM
Helmut and Friker won't like it. :D
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Duplode on November 19, 2013, 03:07:22 PM
A proposition to favor fast cars (without addiitonal analysis done yet): what if we would add as a rule, that the car coefficient bonus cannot drop below zero?

Two concerns, raised without thinking much about them:
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on November 19, 2013, 06:04:05 PM
In effect, negative bonus variations would be capped. If so, how would we distribute the variations to avoid coefficient drift? (As you know, currently the sum of bonus reductions for podium cars is equal to the sum of bonus increases for the other cars.)
True, but I don't think the impact would be too severe as apart from a few very fast cars bonuses rarely drop way beyond zero.
If Indy races keep happening when the bonus is around 5% (7% at Z135; the odds are good for a Z149 Indy race at 4%) we might end up with four Indy races a year.
Could we perhaps balance this by raising the overall value of bonus coefficients distributed? If slow cars have a higher bonus, the Indy would need to reach around 8-10% which secures a healthy rotation.
After all the current total sum of coefficients was not based on any scientific study - just the outcome of a thorough test I did the first time the bonuses were introduced.


Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: CTG on December 24, 2013, 09:56:37 PM
let's say dec22!

It seems we don't have new cars.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on December 30, 2013, 03:25:19 PM
a shame :( Also probably no rule changes.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on January 04, 2014, 10:53:56 PM
Car usage for coefficients update is based only on the top6 of the scoreboard, not the top12. This is the only change for the 2014 rules right now. No new cars in this season.

To be decided before end of January (please express your view)

- Should we drop Endurance Bonus completely?
- any other proposed changes that affect the seasonal scoring?
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on January 04, 2014, 11:08:48 PM
Something with the LTB... or at least to get a point even if RB leaves us only 1 hour of leading...
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on January 04, 2014, 11:34:44 PM
I am open to suggestions.
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: dreadnaut on January 05, 2014, 12:26:00 AM
Optional public replays to attract newbies!

If people like the idea, I'm ready to code it somewhere :)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: Friker on January 05, 2014, 03:29:36 AM
Optional public replays to attract newbies!

If people like the idea, I'm ready to code it somewhere :)

i like it :)
Title: Re: Cars and bonuses for 2014
Post by: zaqrack on January 05, 2014, 01:19:34 PM
sounds cool!