Stunts Forum

ZakStunts - the Competition => Competition and Website => Topic started by: dreadnaut on February 07, 2021, 12:32:56 AM

Title: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 07, 2021, 12:32:56 AM
Hello pipsqueaks! I was planning to have a working version of this for tonight, but since it's not ready I'll post a screenshot and tell you about it :)

If you take part in a race, at the end of the race you will see a new prompt where you can rate the track just completed. It only appears if you submitted a replay, and it disappears after 2-3 weeks if you don't rate the track.

My plan would be to the hide these scores until the end of the season, when they become visible on the season's track list, and the highest ranked becomes the Track of the Year.

There would be no way to change your score after submitting it, or maybe it would "lock" after the same 2-3 weeks period. It could be visible, only to you, on the track page. Something like " [your rate] " and, after the end of the season,  " [your rate] [average rate] ".

Optional feature: when you rate the track you can also enter a short comment or review, that remains on the track page.

Suggestions? Shaking of heads?

Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 07, 2021, 01:00:18 AM
I think this is a great idea!  I like it that it's anonymous, but the results are public. For a suggestion, at the moment, I can think that one could rate different aspects, like good design, fun to race and maybe something else. This could be optional too, like, by default it's only one rating, but if you click something, it splits and the general rating is the average. If you don't split it, all ratings are set to the general rating. Anyway, it's already great as it is. What I'm suggesting makes it a little more convoluted perhaps, but maybe it can serve as an idea for some other feature.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 07, 2021, 01:17:27 AM
I can think that one could rate different aspects, like good design, fun to race and maybe something else.

I considered that, but I'd like to keep it simple. And after all, a track is well designed if it's fun to race, and the other way around ;)
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: KyLiE on February 07, 2021, 01:35:01 PM
What you have described sounds good to me.  I agree that it is a good idea to keep it simple and if you decide to allow comments or reviews, they should definitely be optional.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 08, 2021, 05:20:19 AM
Yeah, I just added something because it's better to say something, but it's great as it is. With rains of ideas, from time to time, something cool comes up, so I like adding.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 10, 2021, 07:49:26 PM
Yeah, I just added something because it's better to say something, but it's great as it is. With rains of ideas, from time to time, something cool comes up, so I like adding.

And ideas are always welcome!

Would be useful to get some feedback from Duplode and Overdrijf as well, who have been involved with "Track of the Year" threads.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Duplode on February 13, 2021, 12:10:29 AM
Would be useful to get some feedback from Duplode and Overdrijf as well, who have been involved with "Track of the Year" threads.

A simple one-click anonymous star rating sounds good to me. If we feel like going over the minutiae of track design, we can do that long form here on the fourm.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 13, 2021, 08:00:51 AM
Now I have another related idea. Again, just throwing it. How about a flag there, when you're giving the stars, that says "This is my favourite track/race of this season". You can set it and, if you had selected a previous one, it'll switch to this one or maybe you can change that at any time from somewhere else. This is like a sixth star, but that you can only give to one track. I don't know.

On the other hand, instead of this, it could be that, when you rank a track higher than you have ranked any previous track in the season, you get a message saying "Hey, this is your favourite track of the season so far!".

These things wouldn't be useful. Just for coolness.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 22, 2021, 12:10:24 AM
Track ratings are live!

It's now possible to rate a track from 1 to 5 stars. Voting is open for three week after the end of a race, although I might leave things open a bit longer for these first races. You should get a prompt on the home page, and on the track scoreboard. You can only rate tracks for races in which you took part.

What's there:
- rate recently concluded tracks from the home page
- rate recently concluded tracks from the track page
- see your rating on the track page

Coming up:
- see personal ratings on the season track list
- update your rating during the three-week window

Later this year:
- once the season and voting is over, show average ratings on the season track list
- once the season and voting is over, highlight the track of the year
- add a page with a list of tracks of the year -- possibly adding those from previous seasons
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: KyLiE on February 22, 2021, 01:54:08 PM
I just rated the last track and it appears to work well!
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 22, 2021, 07:50:49 PM
Indeed. Track rating appears to work well and looks good!

I've noticed something else that might be a bug, though. While looking at the leading times for the previous race, the coloured bar below "600h total" looks nice, but the colour coding appears to not coincide with the content. I mean, if you follow the colours, it says Duplode is yellow, for example and CTG is green and the tags below the bar to the right match that, but if you hover with the mouse, the pipsqueak name that will show up for each section does not coincide with this. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting it, as I have never had any significant leading time on any race  ;D
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 22, 2021, 09:04:25 PM
Well spotted Cas! Replay labels were off by one, they should be fixed now :)
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 24, 2021, 11:57:32 PM
One thing that I realized, is that track authors maybe should not rate their own tracks. Is that reasonable to block?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: KyLiE on February 25, 2021, 12:10:12 PM
One thing that I realized, is that track authors maybe should not rate their own tracks. Is that reasonable to block?

Yes, definitely.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 25, 2021, 09:20:32 PM
Oh, I hadn't thought of that, but you're right!
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: alanrotoi on August 24, 2021, 06:05:07 AM
Is it possible to publish the total rate of the tracks?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on August 24, 2021, 06:37:10 PM
Is it possible to publish the total rate of the tracks?

Initially I wrote this:
My plan would be to the hide these scores until the end of the season, when they become visible on the season's track list, and the highest ranked becomes the Track of the Year.

I was worried that by showing aggregate scores right away, votes would become relative to previous tracks and other people's opinions, and be less "true". I think I'm still of the same opinion, because whenever I happen to see votes in the database (very rarely, but it happens) I find myself thinking "oh, X and Y voted higher; maybe my vote was too low?".

What do you all think of this problem?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: alanrotoi on August 24, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
You're right!  It seems better the way it is. :D Just forget what I said, don't change anything. This is a side data so we don't need it in the middle of the year.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on August 24, 2021, 09:12:11 PM
Ok :)   You can see you own votes on the track list (http://zak.stunts.hu/tracks) at least.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: KyLiE on August 25, 2021, 07:00:34 AM
What do you all think of this problem?

I think that you should leave it the way it is.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on August 25, 2021, 02:07:52 PM
I agree with Dreadnaut. I would've thought exactly the same: if during any kind of poll, people can see the partial results, these results will have an impact on the pending inputs. It's good that we can see our own, though!
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on August 25, 2021, 02:44:36 PM
I agree with Dreadnaut. I would've thought exactly the same: if during any kind of poll, people can see the partial results, these results will have an impact on the pending inputs. It's good that we can see our own, though!
I agree,
I would not have thought of this myself because I do not consider myself to be influenced by such a thing. But I guess it can consciously or subconsciously influence the voting, so it's better to prevent even the possibility if possible,
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on December 21, 2021, 06:42:11 PM
Any results? Or they are not public? It's ten days since the competition has finished...
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Duplode on December 21, 2021, 11:23:35 PM
Any results? Or they are not public? It's ten days since the competition has finished...

The voting will close at the end of the year (source (http://zak.stunts.hu/index.php?page=newsarc&year=2021&month=12#day-12)), so I guess we'll have the results not long thereafter.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on December 22, 2021, 09:06:17 AM
After viewing the votes I have given I feel that I was a bit unfair in my rating at the beginning of the season.
I would like to rectify that.
I there a way to change my vote before the end of the year?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: alanrotoi on December 22, 2021, 01:27:26 PM
Give me 5 stars and your paypal account ;D
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on December 22, 2021, 02:05:40 PM
Any results? Or they are not public? It's ten days since the competition has finished...

Voting is open for three weeks after the end of the race, which bring us to 1st January. There's only a couple of people missing—hello afullo!—so if they vote early I'll publish the results then!

Is there a way to change my vote before the end of the year?
Unfortunately not. Votes are averaged though, so you'll balance out my over-generous ones ;D
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on December 24, 2021, 12:18:57 AM
I'm thinking now that maybe the way each of us votes may be calibrated in a different way, yet we all agree about what ordering the tracks by how much we like them. In other words, maybe some of us will tend to give three stars to tracks that were nothing special to them, four or five to those they especially liked and one or two to those they disliked. At the same time, others might see five stars as corresponding to a normal track and taking stars from those that simply didn't accept the expected levels of something. In the other direction, maybe some of us will just use stars as a prize and begin from zero.

If we're using an average this time, that's fine, but wouldn't it be better to first take all ratings from each pipsqueak and "normalise" them before calculating the average with other pipsqueaks' ratings?  Just a thought. Of course, if we're the same people, the best tracks would still end up higher but a huge discrepancy would appear if somebody new starts voting in the middle of the year or disappears at some point. Again, just an idea. Opinions?  I'm curious.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Duplode on December 26, 2021, 10:00:30 PM
If we're using an average this time, that's fine, but wouldn't it be better to first take all ratings from each pipsqueak and "normalise" them before calculating the average with other pipsqueaks' ratings?  Just a thought. Of course, if we're the same people, the best tracks would still end up higher but a huge discrepancy would appear if somebody new starts voting in the middle of the year or disappears at some point. Again, just an idea. Opinions?  I'm curious.

I think I'd rather have a simple average, to keep things simple and also because any normalisation other than shifting the average to 3 and doing nothing else will introduce distortions of its own.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Overdrijf on December 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
For those people who really can't wait to see some scores, i finally tallied the votes for last year (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3632.msg83009#msg83009). It wasn't as organized an effort as the nice system from this year which we should definitely keep, but we have winners.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on February 14, 2022, 10:21:04 PM
Ryoma said:

Quote
Sorry I really don't like this track. See you next month....

We won't see its effect at the ratings of the track...

How to take phenomena like this into consideraton when we compare track ratings in the end of the year? Last year I also faced situations like this: I could not rate the track because was not good/enjoyable enough to be raceable. (However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing... but this is only me...)

I think rating one's own track exerts less error factor than this effect...
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 14, 2022, 10:43:48 PM
Ryoma said:
Quote
Sorry I really don't like this track. See you next month....
We won't see its effect at the ratings of the track...

How to take phenomena like this into consideraton when we compare track ratings in the end of the year?
I think we should not take this into consideration.

It's kinda like food. You can order a local delicacy that is highly recommended. It doesn't guarantee that you'll like it. It's a matter of taste.
It doesn't make the food any less, just your own opinion on it.

So if you don't like a track and therefore don't race it you can vote as you feel. It's just one vote.

Last season I voted one track I liked less than a track that was undoable for me. Because I could still appreciate the style and the work that went into it.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: alanrotoi on February 14, 2022, 11:23:27 PM
Tangent:

(However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing... but this is only me...)

Hey it happened the same to me back in 2009 or 2011 but it was because I didn't know how to drive those cars, never tryied before and no time to learn them. After, I realized the Stressed era brought new cars more fun, more and different kinds of having fun with Stunts.

What car or cars would you build for Stunts if you have to?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: KyLiE on February 15, 2022, 05:45:28 AM
So if you don't like a track and therefore don't race it you can vote as you feel.

Unless dreadnaut has changed it in the last year, that isn't possible:

You can only rate tracks for races in which you took part.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 15, 2022, 06:49:27 AM
True. But you have to drive it first to know if you like it.  8) so let me rephrase that.
Quote
So if you don't like a track and therefore don't race it anymore you can vote as you feel.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Ryoma on February 15, 2022, 08:04:42 AM
Hey this is my philosophy... I am considering myself as an amateur and only wanting fun (and not spend too much time). If the track like this is so tricky or so technics (with your fu#@#@*"€&£$¥g jumps of sh##&_€$¥£t), I give up because it's not fun.... I never want to be frustated like last year..

Sorry, I'm happy about the great révolution of videogame : The disappearance of the famous popup "try again".

And if I want to be more happy, I expect the disappearance of the second popup "Now loading..." Lol

For remind, I'm the first winner of the amateur race last year ;)
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Duplode on February 15, 2022, 03:47:16 PM
How to take phenomena like this into consideraton when we compare track ratings in the end of the year? Last year I also faced situations like this: I could not rate the track because was not good/enjoyable enough to be raceable. (However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing... but this is only me...)

It does sound like a bit of survival bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias) could be introduced in this way. I feel it might make sense to allow everyone who raced in the recent past (say, in the last six races) to vote.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 15, 2022, 07:35:49 PM
How to take phenomena like this into consideraton when we compare track ratings in the end of the year? Last year I also faced situations like this: I could not rate the track because was not good/enjoyable enough to be raceable. (However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing... but this is only me...)

It does sound like a bit of survival bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias) could be introduced in this way. I feel it might make sense to allow everyone who raced in the recent past (say, in the last six races) to vote.
Do you mean that on top of the criteria that you have to have uploaded a replay to vote on that track?
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Duplode on February 15, 2022, 08:24:22 PM
Do you mean that on top of the criteria that you have to have uploaded a replay to vote on that track?

I mean replacing that criterion, so that, for instance, anyone who posted a replay in any race between ZCT241 and ZCT246 would be able to vote on ZCT246, and not just those who raced in ZCT246.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 15, 2022, 08:36:08 PM
I think that the current criteria is better. You can't rate a track you don't know.
But I also think that a track should always have an easy (gar capable) route.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: dreadnaut on February 15, 2022, 09:31:47 PM
I could not rate the track because was not good/enjoyable enough to be raceable.

This is an interesting point, but a difficult one to solve. There is currently a workaround, where one could send a list-filler, and therefore be able to rate the track. It's a double effort (submit a replay, and come back to rate) so it's a poor workaround :-X

One alternative would be to offer a "Forfeit race" option, where you give up on the race, cannot submit further replays for it, and are allowed to rate it. This is also a poor fix, because it lowers the threshold of abuse. Maybe once can only forfeit if they raced on the previous track?

At the same time, the track of the year is meant to celebrate good and fun tracks. If a track is not good, it will have a lower average anyway. Allowing rare "really bad" votes is not going to affect the result that much. My feeling at the moment is to leave those out, and accept the minimal statistical error.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 15, 2022, 10:36:19 PM
Quote
If a track is not good, it will have a lower average anyway. Allowing rare "really bad" votes is not going to affect the result that much.
I agree. I believe that the current system works well for its purpose. The only thing I missed was the ability to change your vote.

Maybe allow one chance to change your vote for a track in the period after the last race? Then you have a chance to compare all tracks.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on February 16, 2022, 08:38:30 PM
However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing.

I forgot to mention that Melange is an exception of course, it still remains the best custom car. Skoda Felicia Kompressor is another exception, but it's not been used as a competition car for long long years (that's a pity).
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Ryoma on February 18, 2022, 04:57:45 AM
Yes but we can build custom car with high power and high grip...but I think is far from real cars and the compairison with original cars would be cheated.

The only 2 cars which correspond to that criterion are the Lancia ECV 1 and 2.

I'm happy to make car for stunts but it's not this kind of game I like : I prefer an open World like td3 or tdu or a racing game like GT. Here the unreal jumps and glitches are far away from that I want.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 18, 2022, 08:17:34 AM
For me it's the predictability of the driving that has made me come back to the game every time (before I joined the community)

I like open world gaming. Especially with free roam. So I played quite a bit of driver San Francisco.
But Stunts has a special place. I like the pseudo realism of it. Some cars are very difficult for me to drive (in competition) like the Lamborghini countach.  But most custom cars drive very well and feel better balanced than the Lambo. (that is usually my camparison. i drive a lap with the lambo, then a lap with another car. Usually I like the other car better. Not quicker per se, but more enjoyable to drive. That is as far as my car comparisson goes  8) )
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 18, 2022, 10:42:54 AM
However, custom cars much more often keep me away from racing.

I forgot to mention that Melange is an exception of course, it still remains the best custom car. Skoda Felicia Kompressor is another exception, but it's not been used as a competition car for long long years (that's a pity).
I love the Melange and the IMSA cars to. The Indy is nice to drive and used to be the only car I drove.
But that is mostly aimed at setting the fastest time. Getting the most out of the track.

The last year, I spent a lot of time working on the Ferrari edition and testing the track with several custom Ferrari's.
And I started to enjoy driving the cars, not the track. All cars are different, and I'm very impressed by the possibilities of the game engine in that regard. I don't know how close to real the original cars are. But the fact that we can take the manual specs and just use those in a 32-year-old game
is beautiful.
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Cas on February 18, 2022, 07:34:26 PM
That same thing happened to me. When I first had Stunts back in 1993, my friends and I would take turns to play our tracks and we would always use the Porsche March Indy. Sometimes, just for a change, we would pick either the Porsche 962 or the Jaguar, because they were fast enough too. It's true that they lacked power gear, but at that time, it didn't matter much to us because power gear was something we used for experiments. We didn't actually use it for achieving better laps. Although we didn't have rules like OWOOT, we did try to more or less follow the line of the track. Detours and shortcuts were seen by the guys and I as cheating, yet running off road for a moment, was perfectly OK. Anyway, all other cars were too slow to be fun driving those days.

Even when I joined the community, first I was only participating in World Stunts Championship, which was OWOOT and only used the Porsche March Indy, but then when I began trying in ZakStunts, I had to use other cars or else I would be at a great disadvantage. I was kind of annoyed when I had to use a slow car to be competitive, but with time, I learnt to know the different cars and appreciate their possibilities and nowadays, I too think it's amazing how different it feels when you switch from a car to another, like it were a different game. The original engine, however primitive, is exquisitely diverse and powerful!
Title: Re: Track ratings
Post by: Daniel3D on February 18, 2022, 08:58:24 PM
It's a lot of eye for detail to make the engine stats so close related to real engine's. And all for a hand full of cars..
I wonder why. Was it common practice?