We already know that they way newbies are calculated is a bit broken (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3466.0), and the number of months a pipsqueak has been around is not a good measure of their skills.
How can we improve the system?
Note: this is not about a full split into pro and newbie divisions. That has been tried before, and reverted. A separate competition can rise to cover that role, if needed, and if someone starts it.
My first idea starts from a principle. I think everyone would find the competition more entertaining if there was a way to
choose the level of difficulty, up to a certain point.
Currently people are kicked out of the newbie league after a fixed amount of time, whatever the number of races they took part in, or their results. Some linger as newbies far longer than they should, other would enjoy are more relaxed induction, or simply to race at a different level.
My vague proposal, a first iterative step:
- Rename "newbies" to "amateurs" more or less everywhere (except the Newbie Guide)
- When a pipsqueak signs up, they start as an amateur
- Amateur results appear on both the global and the amateur-only scoreboard (as it happens now)
- An amateur loses their status when one of these happens:
- they voluntary choose to do so
- they finish a race in the global top 6 (or 3?)
- they finish a season in the global top 8 (or 6?)
- they win the amateur championship 2 (3?) times, non necessarily in a row
- Once you leave the amateur group, there is no going back
Above, in parantheses, more "lenient" criteria.
It's a very good idea...for me it's too late because you disgusted me a lot...and I think I will do something else (I have a lot of car idea...but I lost all motivation)
Don't forget the GAR compétition for Heretic for example.
Quote from: Ryoma on September 19, 2021, 11:29:43 AM
for me it's too late because you disgusted me a lot...
Well, that's interesting feedback to get, but still better than no feedback! I'll also assume some level of
lost-in-translation here 😅
Would you like to go into more detail about what you found "disgusting", and what difficult?
I was whining at Ryoma on the Zakstunts message board when I looked at what I typed and figured I might actually be onto an idea here, so I'm posting is here too. (Copied from there.)
We could try marking pipsqueak's names on the scoreboard for "has won a race before" (super league, or wait, do we need an ultra tier for season winners?), "has placed on the podium before" (gold league), "has finished in the upper one third of the board before" (silver league) and "everyone else" (bronze league, or do we need another distinction within this one?). That might actually help newer drivers judge who they should see as their competition quicker. KyLiE would have won gold league this round and Heretic would have been this month's silver league winner, as an example. And I think Cas would have won bronze league, but I did not check all his results for whether they fell on the top 1/3 of the board or not.
It might also chase people away because it smells like elitism though... Another alternative might be that you always start in the lowest league and are promoted based on internal end of the year results, but that honestly sounds like it has too many moving parts.
After reading Dreadnaut's proposal in this thread (this bit is no longer copied) I honestly think his idea is probably better in several ways, be it less scalable. That is to say: I like how there are multiple measurements of pipsqueak quality, multiple measurements are usually more accurate than a single one. It also provides both internal (winning the amateur league) and external (placing xth overall) measurements, which is nice. But I'm not sure if you could build that concept out to something with more than two or three ranks. While if you keep the system simpler you can add as many ranks as you like.
This still doesn't feel like something important to me, because I've been here long enough that I know who I should be aiming at beating, depending on lots of different factors like "how much time do I have this month?" and "do I like this track?" as well. But it might be useful for people who are not me?
Igor, a fellow newbie, has mentioned to me on several occasions that he finds many of the tracks too daunting to race competitively with freestyle rules, which is why he hasn't participated lately. As for the GAR competition, he simply doesn't have the time or the patience for it.
Personally, I don't have any issues with the newbie league currently. As for competing against people with a similar skill level, I think the main scoreboard achieves this already. I mean, you're racing against people from all over the world. Stan 286XT is routinely at the bottom of the scoreboard, but he's participated in every race this season, so he must enjoy it.
If you were to change the newbie league, perhaps you could introduce some sort of qualifying system. For example, your time has to be a certain percentage slower than first place in order to qualify and if you make it onto the podium for the season, then you're disqualified. However, as Overdrijf mentioned, this would make things more complicated, which is rarely a good thing.
Quote from: KyLiE on September 19, 2021, 01:28:38 PMhas mentioned to me on several occasions that he finds many of the tracks too daunting to race competitively with freestyle rules
Okay, I didn't think quite far into this yet. That complicates matters.
Do as you want......
Quote from: KyLiE on September 19, 2021, 01:28:38 PM
Igor, a fellow newbie, has mentioned to me on several occasions...
We don't really get feedback from new pipsqueaks, and that's a problem. With larger numbers you would send email surveys after a race or something like that, but we have to work with a bit of information, and much guess-work.
That's clearly a situation where more heads are better. It'd be useful to get Igor's—and any other recent starts'—viewpoint in this topic. KyLiE, could you invite him or intercede for us?
I'll also add a message for current newbies on the home page.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 19, 2021, 11:00:41 AM
My first idea starts from a principle. I think everyone would find the competition more entertaining if there was a way to choose the level of difficulty, up to a certain point.
Currently people are kicked out of the newbie league after a fixed amount of time, whatever the number of races they took part in, or their results. Some linger as newbies far longer than they should, other would enjoy are more relaxed induction, or simply to race at a different level.
My vague proposal, a first iterative step:
- Rename "newbies" to "amateurs" more or less everywhere (except the Newbie Guide)
- When a pipsqueak signs up, they start as an amateur
- Amateur results appear on both the global and the amateur-only scoreboard (as it happens now)
- An amateur loses their status when one of these happens:
- they voluntary choose to do so
- they finish a race in the global top 6 (or 3?)
- they finish a season in the global top 8 (or 6?)
- they win the amateur championship 2 (3?) times, non necessarily in a row
- Once you leave the amateur group, there is no going back
Above, in parantheses, more "lenient" criteria.
I largely agree with this. But it's missing something...
My own barrier to compete more (besides time) is trick's, shortcuts and powergear.
I can't grind a track to learn them. And I don't like that way of driving.
In the other hand I find GAR to strict..
So what I mean is. Skill is more than just time.
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.
It gets me nowhere in de scorebord, can't qualify for GAR.
But it's fun driving.
Maybe that can be emphasized more in the amateur/newbie league.
Quote from: Daniel3D on September 19, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.
Freestyle, shortcuts, and the "anything goes" style of racing is what traditionally differentiates ZakStunts from other competitions. Not that there are many others nowadays, I know. Removing those elements would change the nature of the whole thing, which I am not keen to do.
On the other end, we don't have a good way to
teach those skills to newcomers. The driving school was an brief and limited project, public replays are not that helpful. Teams and forum questions can definitely be more useful.
What do you think of the rules over at Racer4Kicks (http://www.raceforkicks.com/)? Is that the middle ground you are thinking about?
By the way, I don't see GAR as something fundamental for ZakStunts. We can consider replacing it with a more relaxed "stay on the road" set of rules. We had that for a brief time, and I did enjoy it.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 19, 2021, 05:45:58 PM
Quote from: Daniel3D on September 19, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.
Freestyle, shortcuts, and the "anything goes" style of racing is what traditionally differentiates ZakStunts from other competitions. Not that there are many others nowadays, I know. Removing those elements would change the nature of the whole thing, which I am not keen to do.
The main competition should stay as it is. (Don't change a winning formula)
But the newbie league can have alternative rules just like gar (which has its own players so should stay)
Quote
What do you think of the rules over at Racer4Kicks (http://www.raceforkicks.com/)? Is that the middle ground you are thinking about?
I don't feel it as middle ground. It very close to GAR.
And I think that serous competition only works at the two extremes. Well defined rules like owoot or GAR, or freestyle.
There is a lot to say. For a start I think it is needed another advertising campaign to bring new pipsqueaks. Taking the example of 4dsL (2003-2004) its main purpose was to bring new and many people to the community. The key element advertising in a popular abandonware site. Now we can advertise in social media like Facebook or Instagram. Another thing to grow might be the teams. A lot of pipsqueaks joined the community from 4dsl and at least 9 zakstunts championships were won by them (Ayrton, Gutix and Duplode). Many important and very active people for the community came from 4dsl not only champions. AbuRaf70, Chulk, Paleke, Vamologocomisso, Dark Chaser, SergioBaro...
So, key items to take in mind IMHO:
- Advertising
- Teams
- Social media (Facebook, Instagram, youtube etc.)
Suggestions to discuss:
- live update (streamming the final result of the month or something like that would be fun)
- a secondary scoreboard with OWOOTR rules + RH
- Maybe adding an ELO system? (without changing the current point system. Something like the world rank list taking the different scoreboards inside zak's: main, GAR and OWOOTR+RH)
Personally, we would take 4dsL experience applied to 2021 internet tools.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 19, 2021, 03:34:09 PM
It'd be useful to get Igor's—and any other recent starts'—viewpoint in this topic. KyLiE, could you invite him or intercede for us?
Sure! :) I'll let you know when I hear back from him.
It seems we are in the mood for reviewing some old customs. Given we are 3 ½ months from the next season, this seems as good a time as any to have those conversations! (In particular, I'll try to post a bit more on some of the issues being raised here later.)
On advertising and outreach, though my social media clout is next to nonexistent, if anything begins to happen on platforms I'm on I'll be happy to chime in. On a broader note, it feels like this matter has to do with the observation by KyLiE and dreadnaut that we don't get to hear much from pipsqueaks (both actual and potential). Perhaps our communication channels are in fact a touch awkward...
Quote from: alanrotoi on September 20, 2021, 02:09:37 AM
Maybe adding an ELO system? (without changing the current point system. Something like the world rank list taking the different scoreboards inside zak's: main, GAR and OWOOTR+RH)
One of my half-finished projects from earlier this year I gotta come back to is an ELO-like performance rating for ZakStunts, so that's a discussion I'll certainly enjoy having :) For now, just to tie back to the beginning of this thread. An ELO-like rating could be one way of redefining the newbie (beginner's, development, or what you will) league: count as beginners those pipsqueaks with at most
x completed races and whose highest rating ever is at most
y.
As promised, here is the response from Igor:
Quote
Yes, you are right explaining the "daunting" tracks lately. It's been only the last 3, prior to that they were really enjoyable.
Yes, renaming "Newbie" to "Amateur" league may be a good idea. Qualifying for the amateur league can be something like the bottom 50% of pipsqueaks (only pulling rough figures here) in the main competition qualify for the amateur league. People like you shouldn't be in the amateur league even though you are new, as you are too good. This way we amateurs can compete with each other as pipsqueaks of a similar skill level and we can feel like we are competitive amongst ourselves to reach the top of our scoreboard. If and when we become good enough, our score would push us out of the amateur league and keep us only on the main scoreboard.
I hope this makes sense, let me know if you need me to elaborate further.
Quote from: Duplode on September 20, 2021, 04:40:19 AM
On advertising and outreach, though my social media clout is next to nonexistent, if anything begins to happen on platforms I'm on I'll be happy to chime in.
I have a few ideas to reach new players. But that would require some advertising excuse.
Both are based on youtube channels: one with computer racing in general, the other has a lot of old game followers.
For the first I need to create some cool action content clips to contribute.
For the second I need some reason to address the game. (the 30th anniversary edition could work)
I have to say that for me "reaching new players" is a different problem. What I would like to focus on is to make sure that any new players that are interested enough to sign up find the competition welcoming and fun. And if they don't, they tell us why.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't advertise, of course, but advertisement would not be effective if people join and leave with the same speed. Keeping 2 players out of 5 is better than 1 out of 10. In techno-babble, I would like to decrease churn before we increase subscriptions.
I'd also like to do so with the least work possible. Duplode and Overdrijf suggestions are very interesting, but setting up an ELO system takes a lot of work, and needs tuning. Too many variables are a problem, which it shares with having many ranks. I like the criteria for pipsqueak "level" though, such as winning a race, reaching a podium.
That however brings up more questions: what happens when a pipsqueak moves from one level to the next? Is it sudden? Delayed? Does it apply race by race, or is it also reflected in multiple seasonal scoreboards?
Say we give pipsqueaks a level, a colour. That would be easy to visualise on all scoreboards without splitting them. We could add filtering—show me only purple pipsqueaks like me!
A track scoreboard would show the pipsqueak colours for that track. The seasonal scoreboard would show pipsqueak colours at the end of the season (or the current ones if the season is in progress).
It should be evident to a new pipsqueak which colour they are; we'll need something to support colour-blindness by the way. "Hello! As a beginner in Stunts, you are in the green group. You'll gain ranks by finishing higher up on the scoreboard, etc etc". (Oh my, are we adding achievements as well?)
Mmmh...
Sorry this was a bit of stream of consciousness, but it helps me. Let's keep those brains spinning.
Ooh, random thought here, and this might just be asking for people to use ghosts, but what about we differ the public days rules between ranks/brackets? Like for instance: if you're in the top group, your replays will ALWAYS be visible to people in the slowest group. You'd be kind of getting this natural progression. As a new player you get to see every trick, which helps despite how many you cannot imitate yet. Then you lose that info, so you form a team. You have a lot less replays now, and often not the leading ones, but you gain insight through joint analysis of the tracks. When you get the hang of that you're left wishing you had access to the top replays again so you start analyzing winning replays after the race is over to build up your book of tricks.
I feel like this could be a really dangerous idea somehow, but it could be fun?
You forget people who have not enough time.
I don't want to spend my time to see replay but I prefer to search by myself.
Quote from: Overdrijf on September 21, 2021, 07:57:38 AM
Ooh, random thought here, and this might just be asking for people to use ghosts, but what about we differ the public days rules between ranks/brackets? Like for instance: if you're in the top group, your replays will ALWAYS be visible to people in the slowest group. You'd be kind of getting this natural progression. As a new player you get to see every trick, which helps despite how many you cannot imitate yet. Then you lose that info, so you form a team. You have a lot less replays now, and often not the leading ones, but you gain insight through joint analysis of the tracks. When you get the hang of that you're left wishing you had access to the top replays again so you start analyzing winning replays after the race is over to build up your book of tricks.
I feel like this could be a really dangerous idea somehow, but it could be fun?
I think it would be very unfair but let's not forget the meaning of the idea. Knowledge should be shared inside the teams that's why we should make the joining teams a priority.
There should be more content focused on newcommers. I can help on this but I'll need somebody to translate because, as you can see, my english is not good and precise.
For me the replays are cool to watch but useless in competition. I can't do most of it and i'm happy if i can get through a lap without crashing.
I think that the difference between non-Pro and pro should be in skill level as well, not time alone.
For instance:
When driving a corner there is a sweet spot to go around it fast, If you can manage that consistently, you're a Pro.
Able to control powergear?, you're a Pro.
1 in a 1000 shortcut jumps? Like the one in Lockdown, worry and Fear?, you're a Pro.
Make it a checkbox that I doesn't contain that to list in that sub category like with GAR.
Maybe not call it amateur or newbie but 2nd division or something.
Something that anyone can enter for because its just more relaxed driving.
(of the ones that can qualify as pro 'fair use' applies)
It's no complicated rule set, no line between pro's and none pro's just a bit easier to get in to.
Simplicity is sometimes better..
Anyway, this is my opinion. And I realize now that it's kind of what I posted before.
I don't know if this is the best idea. It is something I am missing in the competition.
It's either free, or strict. No middle ground.
Hello you all,
The newbie scoreboard (or amateur league) in my point of view, should be experience based, so a number of participations have to be the principal measure to classify each participant. In this "entrance level" the participant could also win bonus of experience by archieving a certain number of wins or number of presence in "top 3".
That's just my opinion, I guess it's not far from what it is now, and surelly it's not right or wrong.
But after all, I'm glad to participate in this competition so far.
Cheers.
Quote from: Daniel3D on September 21, 2021, 01:30:58 PM
Make it a checkbox that I doesn't contain that to list in that sub category like with GAR.
I like that: it's not a refined solution, but it's a start, and I can do it
now. Actually, I did it before typing this :)
In behaviour is similar to "everyone start as an Amateur, until the choose to become a Pro"; what is missing is the "one-way" constraint (here you can go back), and the enforcement to keep Pro pipsqueaks out of the Amateur scoreboard.
But that can come later. Let's keep this going for the next three months, and see how people feel about it. We'll continue to think about improvements in parallel.
Note:
- this is per-Replay, and not per-Race; one could submit both an Amateur and a Pro replays
- there is nothing stopping a Pro pipsqueak to get into the Amateur scoreboard, and the border between the two groups is blurry; there will be complaints, we'll have to make do.
I'll need to make it
very easy for admins to remove replay tags though :) In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.
[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro.
At least, not limited to.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 21, 2021, 07:13:23 PM
In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.
I have just had a go at that (http://zak.stunts.hu/posts/post-367); please do tweak anything you find necessary there.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 21, 2021, 07:13:23 PM
[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro. At least, not limited to.
Sixth place feels like a decent reference point to have in mind. If we want something more granular (or perhaps more robust with respect to races with low activity), one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).
Quote from: Duplode on September 21, 2021, 09:43:40 PM
I have just had a go at that (http://zak.stunts.hu/posts/post-367); please do tweak anything you find necessary there.
Perfect, thank you very much!
I have just uploaded some changes that will make it easier to remove extra tags, if the need arises ;)
Quote from: Duplode on September 21, 2021, 09:43:40 PM
one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).
That is an interesting way to trigger the move from amateur to pro; slightly more complex that others discussed earlier, but more flexible and possibly fair.
Quote from: Duplode on September 21, 2021, 09:43:40 PM
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 21, 2021, 07:13:23 PM
In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.
I have just had a go at that (http://zak.stunts.hu/posts/post-367); please do tweak anything you find necessary there.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 21, 2021, 07:13:23 PM
[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro. At least, not limited to.
Sixth place feels like a decent reference point to have in mind. If we want something more granular (or perhaps more robust with respect to races with low activity), one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).
I like the idea and I have questions:
Would be annual or every 4 months? (a monthly promotion/descent was a failure idea in 2003)
How to plan descents and how to keep interest in the pipsqueaks when it happens?
Quote from: alanrotoi on September 22, 2021, 12:00:15 AM
How to plan descents and how to keep interest in the pipsqueaks when it happens?
I think the idea is to have everyone in the main competition from the start, so there is no need for descents, and graduation only means one is removed from the amateur scoreboards.
Quote from: alanrotoi on September 22, 2021, 12:00:15 AM
Would be annual or every 4 months? (a monthly promotion/descent was a failure idea in 2003)
If there is no descent because the categories are non-exclusive, I feel there won't be a problem in having pipsqueaks graduating every month, as soon as the criteria are reached. Assuming there will be an amateur scoreboard, races up to and including the graduation one might be counted for it. (4 or 6-month batches might work too, but then what should be counted becomes a trickier question.)
(I'll try my best english :D)
I think the main goals should be:
- to bring more pipsqueaks
- to make them stay and race the most quantity of races possible per year. (9/12 races seems a good goal, 3 worst doesnt count for REAL)
- to give them all the tools available to rise their level (articles, videos, teams, replays, etc)
What we already have?
- Stunts Forum
- Our will to strengthen the community (if we compare the forum stats and replay sent in zakstunts from the last year there is a big rise in participation. There are more messages everywhere, a lot of new cars built, a lot of replays in zaks, new projects and codding, etc)
- Side tools (stressed, track editors, car editors, etc)
- Automated competition sites (it was a great advance believe me)
I would make the transition from the amateur bord a choice if the driver is not overly dominating the board.
I could possibly if i have the time and will match the criteria stated before. But not consistently.
It is still a (less stressful) competition. If it has a nice dynamic between driver's then enforcement out of it to a board your not quite ready for may work against our idea.
EDIT: I love the name and attitude of the scoreboard in the new style. Makes me want to give it another go.
Well, this is a lot of information! I have read rather quickly, so I may be missing something, but I'll give my humble opinion.
I think that, from a pipsqueak's perspective, it is wiser to not allow oneself to feel frustrated for not reaching a certain position in the scoreboard. This is a game we play together for fun and while trying to achieve better results is important, it's not like those who haven't managed to get to the first few positions should give up. And I say it as the not-very-good pipsqueak I am. If we don't seem to find a way to get as good a score as we would like, we should not blame the system, but just do our best... every time, whatever that is.
Now, from a tournament administrator's perspective or as somebody who just wants to see the community happy and strong, I understand the new system and I think Dreadnaut's effort is very positive and whatever we can do to make the game more enjoyable and the environment more comfortable for the community members is worth trying. Other interesting experiments in the past have given different results. The change in how the bonuses vary for cars worked very well! So I hope these changes work well too :)
Thanks all for the feedback. I've chewed on it for a few days, and now I have a second version for your consideration:
- Rename "newbies" to "amateurs" more or less everywhere (except the Newbie Guide)
- Amateur results appear on both the global and the amateur-only scoreboard (as it happens now with the newbie league)
- Amateur results follow the same visibility rules as normal replays
- When a pipsqueak signs up, they start as an amateur
- All existing pipsqueaks who have never reached a podium will start season 2022 as Amateurs
- We will review the list and might forcefully promote some of these before the season starts
- It is possible to leave the Amateur league voluntarily, effect immediate
- Once you leave the amateur group, there is no going back
- An amateur loses their status when they reach 10 ZakPoints, effective from the next race
- Amateurs (only) can gain ZakPoints so:
- 5 points when they finish a race on the global podium
- 1 points when they finish a race in the global top 6
- 3 points when they end a season in the global top 6
- 4 points when they end a season as the Amateur champion
- 2 points when they end a season in the Amateur top 2nd or 3rd positions
- ZakPoints never decrease
All ZakPoints numbers open for discussion of course. I am worried that they'll be impossible to tweak satifactorily. It'd be great if anyone wanted to build some kind of simulator and run ten thousands seasons to see how things move :D
Seems a good move. About the balance or point gain adjustment a ten thousands seasons simulator sound effective :)
Quote from: dreadnaut on October 23, 2021, 11:53:13 PM
I have a second version for your consideration
Sounds good to me. :) Will ZakPoints be visible on the website? My only concern is that they might be confused with regular points.
Quote from: KyLiE on October 24, 2021, 03:08:11 AM
Sounds good to me. :) Will ZakPoints be visible on the website? My only concern is that they might be confused with regular points.
They'll probably appear like an XP progress bar than an actual score.
This all sounds very neat. I like the idea
Under the Zakpoints system I would have promoted around the end of 2011, my third season, with a total of 16 races participated in. I came second in the newbie league both times I was eligible = 2*2 = 4 points, I got a random second place overall in a kart race (5 points) in 2011 and comparing myself to the newbie league of 2011 there's one person in it that ranks above me on the regular board, so let's call that another 2 points.
That seems like a reasonable amount of time to stay an amateur.
Without the random kart race result it might become a much longer stretch of time for me because I was really inactive between 2011 and 2018, but at that point I start picking up enough 6th places and higher to probably deserve to be promoted anyway. And I definitely should not have been counted as an amateur in 2019.
Quote from: Overdrijf on October 26, 2021, 06:03:28 PM
Under the Zakpoints system...
Oh, that's an interesting alternative to simulations :) Although it's difficult to account for points from the Amateur league positions.
I would have been promoted at the end of 2014, after 24-25 races. 9 × +1zp from top-6 positions, followed by +5zp for a podium place, 3rd. That looks fair to me.
We are almost there!
As a start, I have marked all pipsqueaks as Amateurs, except those who have ever been on a podium. The status is visible on the pipsqueak's profile.
Please check your profile ;) And let me know if you think this initial assignment leaves anyone on the wrong side. Happy to add or remove amateurs.
Is it still optional to upload a replay to the amateur scoreboard just as GAR? Or automatically like the newbie league was?
In case it is optional I have no objections because everyone can decide themselves of they consider themselves still amateur (except those already excluded, but that feels like a justified decision)
Quote from: Daniel3D on January 13, 2022, 09:43:34 PM
Is it still optional to upload a replay to the amateur scoreboard just as GAR? Or automatically like the newbie league was?
In case it is optional I have no objections because everyone can decide themselves of they consider themselves still amateur (except those already excluded, but that feels like a justified decision)
Nope, those checkboxes are gone now. People can still decide to
not be an amateur though: there'll be a button to leave the Amateur group, one way :)
I guess being amateur does not imply to submit replays which are public anymore...
Quote from: afullo on January 13, 2022, 11:17:21 PM
I guess being amateur does not imply to submit replays which are public anymore...
At least for 2022, amateur replay will behave like all others, with public / hidden / quiet days. See this post (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3837.msg82028#msg82028) and a few following it.
I'm fine with it then. Looking forward to the new season.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 13, 2022, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: afullo on January 13, 2022, 11:17:21 PM
I guess being amateur does not imply to submit replays which are public anymore...
At least for 2022, amateur replay will behave like all others, with public / hidden / quiet days. See this post (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3837.msg82028#msg82028) and a few following it.
Ok. So for 2022 no problem being amateur, later we will see...
For those hesitating to opt out of the amateur scoreboard... Don't become a Mazespin ;D
Better to let yourself be forced out on points 😜
One thing that Alan pointed out to me: if an amateur joins a team with pro pipsqueaks, does he/she still count as an amateur?
I think that being an amateur or not depends on personal experience and growth. Wether or not you are part of a team should not matter.
I've been in a team last season, it doesn't make me a different driver. It does make me more involved.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 19, 2022, 07:03:10 PM
One thing that Alan pointed out to me: if an amateur joins a team with pro pipsqueaks, does he/she still count as an amateur?
Yep and it's not only about being amateur or not, also it's a team thing. If the team developes a trick or finds a shortcut and they want to keep them for their own (hidding from non-teammates pipsqueaks or competition opponents) it is totally legal. This information would leak through the amateur league members because they only can send public replays.
Quote from: alanrotoi on January 19, 2022, 09:35:30 PM
This information would leak through the amateur league members because they only can send public replays.
Fortunately, that rule was changed so that amateur league pipsqueaks can post non-public replays like everyone else.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 19, 2022, 07:03:10 PM
One thing that Alan pointed out to me: if an amateur joins a team with pro pipsqueaks, does he/she still count as an amateur?
I think they should count. The amateur league and the team system are both supposed to encourage pipsqueak participation and engagement; I feel it would be counterproductive to make people choose just one of them.
Quote from: Duplode on January 19, 2022, 11:28:16 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on January 19, 2022, 09:35:30 PM
This information would leak through the amateur league members because they only can send public replays.
Fortunately, that rule was changed so that amateur league pipsqueaks can post non-public replays like everyone else.
Really? Then everything is allright :D
In the excitement of the server upgrade, I have forgotten an important detail:
@Frieshansen has been promoted out of the Amateur league, starting from ZCT254.
According to the experimental rules (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=82031) for 2022, reaching the podium twice in previous races means he has gained 10 experience points, and the effect is immediate. In the current implementation, this doesn't mean he loses his amateur scoreboard points, so he is still on track for the Amateur title, but unable to gain more points there.
Any comments before I apply the change?
So this year is the last being in amateur league. Deserved achievement!
It sounds fair to me.
Bye bye Amateur league 8)
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 10, 2022, 02:38:35 PMAny comments before I apply the change?
I was actually thinking about this recently and wondering when the change would take effect. It sounds good to me.
Yep. It sounds fair as it is
Done. Congratulations to Frieshansen for the promotion, some hard work there!
Thanks, now the hard life of a junior-professional begins :) I'll do my best to live up to that.
Quote from: dreadnaut on September 10, 2022, 02:38:35 PMIn the excitement of the server upgrade, I have forgotten an important detail: @Frieshansen has been promoted out of the Amateur league, starting from ZCT254.
According to the experimental rules (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=82031) for 2022, reaching the podium twice in previous races means he has gained 10 experience points, and the effect is immediate. In the current implementation, this doesn't mean he loses his amateur scoreboard points, so he is still on track for the Amateur title, but unable to gain more points there.
Any comments before I apply the change?
A comment after you apply the change..
The rule is good but a bit ridged.
How about 10 xp in the last 12 driven races.
And an opt back to amateur if one does not reach 10? xp in 12 races anymore.
As incentive to keep being qualified as pro, but if one has less time to race a chance to step back and keep it interesting for the driver.
Of course if a former pro starts preforming like one again the promotion to pro is immediate as soon as ex is gained.
Quote from: Daniel3D on September 11, 2022, 05:09:51 PMThe rule is good but a bit ridged.
How about 10 xp in the last 12 driven races.
And an opt back to amateur if one does not reach 10? xp in 12 races anymore.
I'm not sure what you mean by "ridged".
I would prefer to a) not change the rules before seeing them in action for at least a season, and b) keep them simple. We'll see in December if the need for tweaks presents itself.
I meant in static and not flexible.
Once pro, always a pro.
But being a pro is only a small part skill. A lot of it is time and effort.
So a way back could be something fresh pros would like.
But for now, keep it as it is. Just voiced it to have the idea open. If there is no interest in it, then that's ok.
Quote from: Daniel3D on September 12, 2022, 07:22:16 AMI meant in static and not flexible.
"Rigid" then 👍 I see what you mean, the promotion is one-way and might feel like a curse: now you are a "pro" and that's it.
Just to clarify, there is no "professional" division: there's a subset for amateurs, otherwise it's "everyone". That said, I understand that people might be more comfortable remaining amateurs. I hope that the experience numbers will move
very slowly for most people. If they do not, we'll need to revise the rules.
I have no fear to be forced into pro status. 8) I think that a top 12 position is possible for me, but it is more likely to be because of lack of attendance than skillful driving ;D