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ZakStunts - the Competition => Competition Archive => Competition 2021 => Topic started by: Duplode on October 18, 2021, 03:41:01 AM

Title: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Duplode on October 18, 2021, 03:41:01 AM
Z244 has a two-tile switching shortcut, which is illusrated by the attached diagram and Trueno lap. As per tradition (ZCT202 (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3411.msg72687#msg72687), ZCT146 (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=2958.msg58897#msg58897), ZCT136 (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=2725.msg52193#msg52193), etc.), now it's that time in which we sit down and decide whether it should be forbidden.

My take: while this shortcut isn't as destructive as the ones seen in past cases (it affects less than half of the track, and might not even be advantageous with faster cars), I think it should be forbidden anyway (it is as ugly as any of those two-tile cuts, and ruins a perfectly good section of the track). For a more objective rationale, we might invoke the "it shouldn't be allowed to drive the same section of track in both directions" principle, originally suggested by afullo back in ZCT202.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: alanrotoi on October 18, 2021, 04:03:01 AM
I agree it may generate dissapointing to who didn't find it at the end of the race (It killed me in zct23? so I know how frustrating it could be). Maybe it is not very useful this race so it makes the perfect time to talk about. I agree to forbid this, not from zakstunts forbidding rule but from not allowing it when we build the tracks.
Being the first day maybe dreadnaut could fix the track.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: dreadnaut on October 18, 2021, 07:39:08 AM
Mmmh, I saw it, but assumed it would not be competitive. Hadn't considered slow cars though :(

With a few replays already out, I would avoid changing the track. No problem with the ad-hoc forbid rule if you see this becoming a problem.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: afullo on October 18, 2021, 10:06:15 AM
As Julian Bashir said in Star Trek DS9: 3x17 Visionary, who am I to disagree with myself?  :P
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Ryoma on October 18, 2021, 10:33:03 AM
Whaou how you can see this kind of shortcut ?????
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Daniel3D on October 18, 2021, 12:05:45 PM
I didn't know this was possible and in my opinion this kind of shortcut should not be allowed.

I mean, even powergear laps follow the general direction of the track. But this goes squarely against it and is in my opinion cheating.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Daniel3D on October 18, 2021, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on October 18, 2021, 04:03:01 AM
but from not allowing it when we build the tracks.
Ehmm. How?
I didn't know it was possible.
And I don't see how it works.
I wouldn't be able to avoid it.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: dreadnaut on October 18, 2021, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Daniel3D on October 18, 2021, 12:55:41 PM
And I don't see how it works.
I wouldn't be able to avoid it.

The wiki article (http://wiki.stunts.hu/index.php?title=Dual-way_switching) is brief, but to the point: after a road split, as long as you traverse one tile of one of the branches and the tile where they re-join, you will not receive penalty time. This is what let us jump from one branch to the other of a dual-way track, but it also opens the door to less fun tricks such as this one.

It is possible to prevent them when designing the track, usually by making sure they are slower then the clean route. But sometimes they just sneak in.

We usually cover these exceptions with an extra rule: you are not allowed to drive the same tiles in both directions.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Daniel3D on October 18, 2021, 08:03:47 PM
I'm still not sure if I understand.
Is this bug that what makes a 30 second time possible on default? I've been wondering about that.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Duplode on October 19, 2021, 02:48:41 AM
To be as lenient as we can, the general principle I have in mind is that it is not okay to drive on the same part of the track in the correct direction and in the wrong way while doing a dual-way switch. Dual way cuts with some wrong way driving are sometimes okay (the top Vette replays in ZCT202), and so is driving in both directions without dual-way switching (KyLiE's USL track (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3704.0)); both things at the same time, though, tend to ruin tracks.

Quote from: Ryoma on October 18, 2021, 10:33:03 AM
Whaou how you can see this kind of shortcut ?????

A trained eye, mostly. It sure is befuddling the first few times you see it!

Quote from: Daniel3D on October 18, 2021, 08:03:47 PM
Is this bug that what makes a 30 second time possible on default? I've been wondering about that.

Yup, the thirty-and-a-bit Default lines follow pretty much the same principle: there is a split near the beginning of the track with the corresponding rejoin near the end, so you can skip most of the track by dual-way switching. The one difference is that Indy powergear means sticking to the road through wrong way driving becomes unnecessary.

On track design: through cheap dual-way cuts can sometimes be prevented, I find it hard to blame the designers for this sort of thing, specially considering how some very natural features to want on a track (such as long dual-way sectors, or dual-way sectors with intersections) make cheap switches more likely. It's not nice when designers have to cramp their style; ergo my approval of ad hoc and semi-official rulings in cases like this.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Cas on October 19, 2021, 08:37:30 PM
Maybe some kind of peer-review strategy could help prevent this kind of problem.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 11, 2021, 11:45:40 PM
Official: I don't have access to my top replay since I'm in COVID-19 quarantine till Monday morning... I have to re-drive or I can neglect the track... I'll see it...
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: dreadnaut on November 14, 2021, 01:49:26 PM
While checking replays, I have noticed that Alan's two besy laps do not replay correctly, with the car crashing against the entrance of the last tunnels.

I'll have to apply the "replays are valid if the play" rule here, and drop those results. The best replay that reaches the end is 1'14"15 -> 0'58"58, so the scoreboard would not be affected.

Attached are the two problematic replays, 1'13"80 and 1'13"85.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: alanrotoi on November 14, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
Oh! I was about to refuse it but I watched the replay and it happens just like you say :o After the crash if you rewind a few seconds and keep watching the replay it gets the correct path. I didn't noted that. Why it happens?

If the final result doesn't change I think it's ok anyway.

PS: another bug to the bug count thread, weird saved replays.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: dreadnaut on November 14, 2021, 02:21:32 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on November 14, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
Oh! I was about to refuse it but I watched the replay and it happens just like you say :o After the crash if you rewind a few seconds and keep watching the replay it gets the correct path. I didn't noted that. Why it happens?

"Advanced" powergear cornering sometimes does that. Rewinding can "fix it" sometimes, or playing with fast-forward. But it's not consistent :\
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Duplode on November 14, 2021, 03:26:11 PM
Quote from: dreadnaut on November 14, 2021, 01:49:26 PM
While checking replays, I have noticed that Alan's two besy laps do not replay correctly, with the car crashing against the entrance of the last tunnels.

I'll have to apply the "replays are valid if the play" rule here, and drop those results. The best replay that reaches the end is 1'14"15 -> 0'58"58, so the scoreboard would not be affected.

Well, now that this rule is in practice I just can't shake off the feeling it is really harsh... Ideally I'd like to see a more liberal rule for 2022, so later I'll have a closer look at how unstable replays behave and try to come up with a suggestion of alternative rule that accepts as many replays as possible while ruling out the truly pathological cases (e.g. Overdrijf's ZCT232 lap).
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: dreadnaut on November 14, 2021, 04:27:59 PM
Quote from: Duplode on November 14, 2021, 03:26:11 PM
Well, now that this rule is in practice I just can't shake off the feeling it is really harsh...

I does feel harsh, because the only solution is to re-drive the problematic section. On the other end, it is easy to verify a "risky" replay before submitting it. If it becomes a habit to check, it would be rarely applied. In a team it would happen naturally if you compare laps.

I think it would be very unfriendly to download a race archive and find out that the winning replay uses impossible-looking tricks and doesn't even run. "Oh, you just need to play it until the crash, rewind 1.722222 seconds, then continue double speed from the F4 camera, and it's fine!" doesn't cut it for me.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Cas on November 14, 2021, 05:38:08 PM
This was a lot of fun. Great race!
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 16, 2021, 09:15:20 PM
As for me, I would accept replays like Rotoi's. Earlier it was accepted in this competition without any doubt. It has something to do with the powergear bug, and the driver can't be blamed for that. IMO: if there is any way of watching the replay, it should be considered legal.

Btw I rated the track as a Melange track. As a Corvette track, it would have deserved a lower score, but I had drove the track only with the Melange. You know, race for fun - I'm many, many years beyond result-oriented racing.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: alanrotoi on November 16, 2021, 09:54:15 PM
Quote from: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 16, 2021, 09:15:20 PM
Btw I rated the track as a Melange track. As a Corvette track, it would have deserved a lower score, but I had drove the track only with the Melange. You know, race for fun - I'm many, many years beyond result-oriented racing.

That replay from Duplode! I had a Corvette replay finished before I could match his lap with Melange. Then he sent his vett rpl so I could reply fast.
I agree this track was better with Melange or IMSA cars.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: Daniel3D on November 16, 2021, 10:21:14 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on November 16, 2021, 09:54:15 PM
Quote from: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 16, 2021, 09:15:20 PM
Btw I rated the track as a Melange track. As a Corvette track, it would have deserved a lower score, but I had drove the track only with the Melange. You know, race for fun - I'm many, many years beyond result-oriented racing.

That replay from Duplode! I had a Corvette replay finished before I could match his lap with Melange. Then he sent his vett rpl so I could reply fast.
I agree this track was better with Melange or IMSA cars.
I designed it with the DTM, melange and IMSA cars in mind, so thank you for the compliment.   8)

About power gear replays. (I can't do it myself so this is a sideline perspective and opinion)
I feel that when you exploit a bug you take a risk. Also you can test your replays yourself and you have unlimited uploads, so you can always upload backup one more for safety. Maybe a bit slower but won't take you out of the game.
Title: Re: ZCT244 - Crazy Eight
Post by: alanrotoi on November 16, 2021, 10:40:19 PM
Quote from: Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister on November 16, 2021, 09:15:20 PM
As for me, I would accept replays like Rotoi's. Earlier it was accepted in this competition without any doubt. It has something to do with the powergear bug, and the driver can't be blamed for that. IMO: if there is any way of watching the replay, it should be considered legal.

BTW I also agree with this. I would accept this kind of replay but the last word of course is from the manager. There is a lot of work in those replays. We are exploiting bugs so we would accept not so straight replays if the replay system of the game is not effective enough.