Author Topic: Poetry Fanats 2008  (Read 17920 times)

JTK

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2008, 11:38:31 AM »
Reiner Kunze, a german poet I really, really like, 've heard him very often, he reads his poems very well, well Reiner Kunze tells, why I need poetry in my life:


Poetik

So viele antworten gibt's.
doch wir wissen nicht zu fragen

Das gedicht
ist der blindenstock des dichters

Mit ihm berührt er die dinge,
um sie zu erkennen
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JTK

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2008, 11:47:53 AM »
Another poetrice I really love to read is Ulla Hahn. This one is a mean one about Love:


Heller Wahnsinn

Die Liebe ist kein Engelchen mit Flügeln,
kein dicker Säugling der mit Pfeilchen schießt;
die Liebe ist ein Engel von vielen,
die Gottes Rache aus dem Himmel stieß

als sie wie er sein wollte: schön und
grausam blind und allmächtig, nicht
von dieser Welt zeigt sie seither
in immer neuen Bildern das Gesicht

des Würgeengels der nach seiner Peitsche
die Herzen tanzen lässt bis er zuletzt
die Taumelnden Gefallenen zu fällen
den Fuß auf ihre armen Kehlen setzt,

und dort verharrt, sich auf dem Absatz
wendet sorgfältig, ohne Eile, hin und her.
Mitunter soll es glücken zu entkommen
der Freispruch heißt: Ich liebe dich nicht mehr!
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Krys TOFF

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2008, 02:11:57 PM »
The height of all poetry:

If there is one water in Europe I want, it is the
Black cold pool where into the scented twilight
A child squatting full of sadness, launches
A boat as fragile as a butterfly in May.
A big hint of the real deep meaning of this poem is in this part you quoted, and in the last part.
I can't wait to read you interpretation.

Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2008, 12:44:57 PM »
Who cares (...) who was the king of z country in 1800 etc etc...
Such a strange sentence from you after the "history" discussion we had about events that caused the disband of Hungarian empire long before we were all born (yes, all, even AbuRaf :D)

The name of the king is just a redundant fact. You are more sophisticated if you know this, but adds nothing to the general understanding of where your country is now, and how it came to this status.
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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2008, 01:10:23 PM »
Okay, you moved into literature criticism, that was not very careful of you :)

First of all, I think that all of your post is tainted with a general hate or dissatisfaction caused by something that has nothing to do with what you are actually writing about. I can't be sure about this, but your post looks like it. If it's the case, don't let everything be overshadowed! It is essential to fight hate using the beauty that still hasn't been tainted.
Secondly, about poetry:
"Literature teachers" don't care what the poet thought when he wrote the poem. That is a biographical question, not a literary question, and only people who haven't studied literature will ask it. There is no way to find out what the author thought, and really it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters, and the only thing that people like myself who study literature care about is the actual text. What is expressed in the text? What does the text do? What can we draw from the text?
Generally, all literature can be divided, if one wishes, into two realms: form and content. In prose, form is not so important, but in poetry it is dominant. That is one of the things that divide prose from poetry. The enjoyment of the content is generally intellectual, and the enjoyment of the form is simpler, more emotional. You seem to disregard this second enjoyment (why? It would seem to be something the snobs you yourself describe would do), which of course greatly demeans the total output of the poem, which is a combination of these two values, hopefully heavily interacting.
But let's for the moment look only at the content of a poem or prose. I agree then with your basic idea: there is no reason to write something in a complicated way if it could be written in a simple way instead. Then the complicated way can still be good, but the simple way would be better, as it has better chances of being understood, and is easier to read. But I really don't believe that everything can be expressed simply. And I am very grateful that it can't, for what a boring world that would then be! I find that simple poetry can be good, but in the long run, you've read it all (as it can only express rather simple things), and that's when complicated poetry becomes more interesting. The objective of good complicated poetry is to express things in life that can't be expressed simply. Things that can't be expressed without metaphors. The world is full of those things. And it even becomes fuller of them because poets invent new concepts using metaphors, imagery, meters etc. I love this! It makes the world richer and it broadens my horizon.

Some small examples from music:

GOOD, SIMPLE:

"I know it's over
and it never really began
but in my heart it was so real" (even though this contains one metaphor, the "heart" metaphor, it is simple and strong)

(Morrissey, The Smiths - I Know It's Over)

BAD, SIMPLE:

"anytime that you're feeling restless
take a deep breath and let it go
only know that it leaves me breathless
anytime that you're low" (this is crap for so many reasons I don't even know where to start. But at least it rhymes :))

(Andy Bell, Erasure - How My Eyes Adore You)

BAD, COMPLICATED:

"you'll see your problems multiply
if you continually decide
to faithfully pursue
the policy of truth" (might as well have said: "lie, or you'll get more trouble". Full of useless fluff which does make the form better, but at too high an expense content-wise)

(Martin Gore, Depeche Mode - Policy Of Truth)

GOOD, COMPLICATED:

"So this is permanence
Love's shattered pride
What once was innocence
turned on its side" (is there a way to express the same simply? No. Is it something worth expressing? Yes.)

(Ian Curtis, Joy Division - Twenty-Four Hours)

I always feel a general dissatisfaction with this world, and now it's stronger then usual, I'm living quite bad weeks of my life. But, as I mentioned, I always felt this, and maybe you know this from old chatroom and msn conversations. Maybe my sentences in that post were woven through with that general dissatisfaction, but I think you can say that on almost all of my posts, even when I say BÖFF sometimes.

I think we misunderstood each other a bit. You say it's not important what the poet had thought, but it's important what the text expresses. For me, the two are exactly the same. The text expresses what the poet wanted to be expressed by himself, but it's not always easily understandable what it (the poem) wants to be expressed. And it can be understandable many many ways. The more complicated it is, the more way it can be understood. I think a poem should be understood only one (or very few) ways. The principles, laws of nature can be understood one way only. What is said to be science, it needs to be understood only one way. Literature can be defined as a science (a non natural science), but art can't. Large part of literature said to be art, but that's is just overcomplicated shit, and shouldn't be taught in school.

For me, poem and good poetry means to make your thoughts or things you want to be expressed in lines which rhyme, and consist of more or less the same syllables. It is more complicated than a prose a bit. Complicated is maybe not the most perfect word, it's rather more symmetric. Since nature always strive for being more and more symmetric, for people, the more symmetric thing (anything!) sounds/looks better. That's why people like poems, that's why I also don't ignore poetry. But it shouldn't be overcomplicated the way you like it.

About the mentioned four examples: I think "bad and simple" is far the best. The "good and simple" one is not so simple because of the unnecessary metaphor, it need time to be understood, and when it's made, I felt it wasn't worthy to think about it (and it's true for almost all of the "complicated" poems or parts of poems). By the way "good and complicated" is slightly better than "good and simple", but I can't describe why, especially in English. :) The "complicated" ones would have been better if they had been written in a more simple way.
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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »
Science: one way of thinking?!?!? Do you know how many different theories are for molecular orbitals? ;D
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Krys TOFF

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2008, 12:16:44 AM »
Quote from: Akoss Poo
I think a poem should be understood only one (or very few) ways.
A poem like that is a bad poem. :P ;D

Quote from: Akoss Poo
The principles, laws of nature can be understood one way only. What is said to be science, it needs to be understood only one way.
There's only one, way of life
And that's your own, your own, your own

Levellers - One way

Everybody can find his own way. But an only one-way thinking would bore me quickly personnally. :D

Quote from: Akoss Poo
For me, poem and good poetry means to make your thoughts or things you want to be expressed in lines which rhyme, and consist of more or less the same syllables. It is more complicated than a prose a bit. Complicated is maybe not the most perfect word, it's rather more symmetric.
So maybe you should create your view of the perfect poetry : the symetric rhythmed and palindromic poetry. ;)

Quote from: Akoss Poo
The "complicated" ones would have been better if they had been written in a more simple way.
Sometimes, poets don't want to be understood by everyone. Sometimes their own lives depended on that when the poems were written. Don't forget that.
Personnaly, I like to read a poem, understand it in a way, then re-read it and find other interpretations, and again and again. This way, the poem is always a new one in my mind. That's what I call a good poem (or a text in general, some short stories can be that way too).
The one Jacky quoted from Rimbaud is one of the best examples. I won't detail right now the different levels of understandng it because I still wait BJ's interpretation of it. ;D So I'll do it after him. ;)

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2008, 09:27:32 PM »
there you go a piece of art, which is also science and also a good refelction of our society. Specially recommended to Akoss:

http://www.cloaca.be/
http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2002/01/49606?currentPage=1

Krys TOFF

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2008, 11:04:22 PM »
Quote from: zaqrack
http://www.cloaca.be/
"With Cloaca Cyber Poo, I increased my self-awareness in a profound way."
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ! :D

BonzaiJoe

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2008, 09:11:43 PM »
Okay, you moved into literature criticism, that was not very careful of you :)

First of all, I think that all of your post is tainted with a general hate or dissatisfaction caused by something that has nothing to do with what you are actually writing about. I can't be sure about this, but your post looks like it. If it's the case, don't let everything be overshadowed! It is essential to fight hate using the beauty that still hasn't been tainted.
Secondly, about poetry:
"Literature teachers" don't care what the poet thought when he wrote the poem. That is a biographical question, not a literary question, and only people who haven't studied literature will ask it. There is no way to find out what the author thought, and really it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters, and the only thing that people like myself who study literature care about is the actual text. What is expressed in the text? What does the text do? What can we draw from the text?
Generally, all literature can be divided, if one wishes, into two realms: form and content. In prose, form is not so important, but in poetry it is dominant. That is one of the things that divide prose from poetry. The enjoyment of the content is generally intellectual, and the enjoyment of the form is simpler, more emotional. You seem to disregard this second enjoyment (why? It would seem to be something the snobs you yourself describe would do), which of course greatly demeans the total output of the poem, which is a combination of these two values, hopefully heavily interacting.
But let's for the moment look only at the content of a poem or prose. I agree then with your basic idea: there is no reason to write something in a complicated way if it could be written in a simple way instead. Then the complicated way can still be good, but the simple way would be better, as it has better chances of being understood, and is easier to read. But I really don't believe that everything can be expressed simply. And I am very grateful that it can't, for what a boring world that would then be! I find that simple poetry can be good, but in the long run, you've read it all (as it can only express rather simple things), and that's when complicated poetry becomes more interesting. The objective of good complicated poetry is to express things in life that can't be expressed simply. Things that can't be expressed without metaphors. The world is full of those things. And it even becomes fuller of them because poets invent new concepts using metaphors, imagery, meters etc. I love this! It makes the world richer and it broadens my horizon.

Some small examples from music:

GOOD, SIMPLE:

"I know it's over
and it never really began
but in my heart it was so real" (even though this contains one metaphor, the "heart" metaphor, it is simple and strong)

(Morrissey, The Smiths - I Know It's Over)

BAD, SIMPLE:

"anytime that you're feeling restless
take a deep breath and let it go
only know that it leaves me breathless
anytime that you're low" (this is crap for so many reasons I don't even know where to start. But at least it rhymes :))

(Andy Bell, Erasure - How My Eyes Adore You)

BAD, COMPLICATED:

"you'll see your problems multiply
if you continually decide
to faithfully pursue
the policy of truth" (might as well have said: "lie, or you'll get more trouble". Full of useless fluff which does make the form better, but at too high an expense content-wise)

(Martin Gore, Depeche Mode - Policy Of Truth)

GOOD, COMPLICATED:

"So this is permanence
Love's shattered pride
What once was innocence
turned on its side" (is there a way to express the same simply? No. Is it something worth expressing? Yes.)

(Ian Curtis, Joy Division - Twenty-Four Hours)

I always feel a general dissatisfaction with this world, and now it's stronger then usual, I'm living quite bad weeks of my life. But, as I mentioned, I always felt this, and maybe you know this from old chatroom and msn conversations. Maybe my sentences in that post were woven through with that general dissatisfaction, but I think you can say that on almost all of my posts, even when I say BÖFF sometimes.

I think we misunderstood each other a bit. You say it's not important what the poet had thought, but it's important what the text expresses. For me, the two are exactly the same. The text expresses what the poet wanted to be expressed by himself, but it's not always easily understandable what it (the poem) wants to be expressed. And it can be understandable many many ways. The more complicated it is, the more way it can be understood. I think a poem should be understood only one (or very few) ways. The principles, laws of nature can be understood one way only. What is said to be science, it needs to be understood only one way. Literature can be defined as a science (a non natural science), but art can't. Large part of literature said to be art, but that's is just overcomplicated shit, and shouldn't be taught in school.

For me, poem and good poetry means to make your thoughts or things you want to be expressed in lines which rhyme, and consist of more or less the same syllables. It is more complicated than a prose a bit. Complicated is maybe not the most perfect word, it's rather more symmetric. Since nature always strive for being more and more symmetric, for people, the more symmetric thing (anything!) sounds/looks better. That's why people like poems, that's why I also don't ignore poetry. But it shouldn't be overcomplicated the way you like it.

About the mentioned four examples: I think "bad and simple" is far the best. The "good and simple" one is not so simple because of the unnecessary metaphor, it need time to be understood, and when it's made, I felt it wasn't worthy to think about it (and it's true for almost all of the "complicated" poems or parts of poems). By the way "good and complicated" is slightly better than "good and simple", but I can't describe why, especially in English. :) The "complicated" ones would have been better if they had been written in a more simple way.

I really don't understand why you find it important what the writer of a poem thought. What if he wasn't thinking anything? What if the poem was written by a computer? You can never know, and if you persist that you want to focus on people instead of texts, you will not be able to enjoy poetry, as obviously you aren't :). So I encourage you to become more like me, and read the texts for what they are. Just like you do with any other thing - you use something the way you want to use it, not necessarily the way it was intended to be used. And sometimes things weren't created with a certain intention, sometimes with ambiguous intentions... It's the same with poetry.
For me, the goal is to become inspired, to learn more, to expand my horizon, to enrich my life. Poetry is a means to that. I let the poetry play with my brain, so to speak. It's a bit like holding prisms before a light projector and seeing what the scene looks like. The poems are prisms. Every poem allows me to see life in a different way (unless it expresses only something I have already seen before, but this is exactly what complicated poetry doesn't). Some light-projections are more beautiful than others, like paintings. Some because of patterns, some because of colours, some because of an interpreted meaning. But even a prism which doesn't make the stage look beautiful can have a value because it makes it look unusual. Then my life is enriched, I can think about things in a different way, find out more, stop being bored with something I was bored with before, etc. That is the true value of poetry to me. If it's beautiful that's just even better. Poems like the Rimbaud one has both qualities.

I also don't understand your distinction between "literature" and "art". The only literature that isn't art is stuff like medical journals. Art is simply a mode of expression that allows you to express so much more than you can with other modes of expression. Much more complicated things. That's why it's taught at school - it is essential in order to build up a broad understanding of the world.
To put it in a different way: literature can be seen as a science, and it can be seen as an art. If it's seen as science, it is really bad science, if it's seen as art, it is really good art. But science/art is not a dichotomy at all, they both pertain to the same truth, only science does it in a precise way, leaving out no factors, while art does it in an abstract way, shooting out infinitely more widely and profoundly, but at the expense of accuracy.

But look at it this way: my view on poetry is bringing me an inexhaustible source of inspiration and value, while your view gives you nothing except the occasionally passing joy of a well-constructed pattern. Maybe you should switch to my view? We create the world for ourselves, and limited perspective means limited life.

Sorry, it is really hard to express things like these clearly, and I know this post is difficult to understand.
But we can't be quite sure.


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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2010, 05:38:41 AM »
(Please ignore the outdated title: This is perhaps the greatest "serious" thread around here and I'm feeling like doing some forum necromancy)

Lord Byron - The Destruction of Sennacherib

The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold,
And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold;
And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea,
When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.

Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green,
That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown,
That host on the morrow lay withered and strown.

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

And there lay the steed with his nostril all wide,
But through it there rolled not the breath of his pride;
And the foam of his gasping lay white on the turf,
And cold as the spray of the rock-beating surf.

And there lay the rider distorted and pale,
With the dew on his brow, and the rust on his mail:
And the tents were all silent, the banners alone,
The lances unlifted, the trumpet unblown.

And the widows of Ashur are loud in their wail,
And the idols are broke in the temple of Baal;
And the might of the Gentile, unsmote by the sword,
Hath melted like snow in the glance of the Lord!

(And to the folks who think poetry is too soft a pastime for "true men", whatever that means: consider how the poem above could sound awesome if set to a prog metal tune, Opeth style. In fact, I actually want to try doing that some day  :))
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:40:54 AM by Duplode »

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2010, 08:52:57 PM »
böff
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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2010, 09:17:08 PM »
Very nice :-)

It's fun re-reading my last post on this thread. I had forgotten about writing it, but three months later I went and wrote my BA-thesis on basically the same subject. The idea for it might have formed here in the Forum.





As for Byron, Duplode - you are still half a true man. It's poetry, but it's about mass killing :-)

My personal favourite Byron poem, on the other hand, makes me a 100% genuine fake man:

There be none of Beauty's daughters
With a magic like Thee;
And like music on the waters
Is thy sweet voice to me:
When, as if its sound were causing
The charméd ocean's pausing,
The waves lie still and gleaming,
And the lull'd winds seem dreaming:
And the midnight moon is weaving
Her bright chain o'er the deep,
Whose breast is gently heaving
As an infant's asleep:
So the spirit bows before thee
To listen and adore thee;
With a full but soft emotion,
Like the swell of Summer's ocean.
But we can't be quite sure.


Duplode

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2010, 10:57:49 PM »
My favourite Byron, in fact, probably consists of these "Stanzas to Augusta":
   
   Though the day of my destiny's over,
       And the star of my fate hath declined,
   Thy soft heart refused to discover
       The faults which so many could find;
    Though thy soul with my grief was acquainted,
       It shrunk not to share it with me,
   And the love which my spirit hath painted
       It never hath found but in thee.
   
   Then when nature around me is smiling
        The last smile which answers to mine,
   I do not believe it beguiling
       Because it reminds me of thine;
   And when winds are at war with the ocean,
       As the breasts I believed in with me,
    If their billows excite an emotion,
       It is that they bear me from thee.
   
   Though the rock of my last hope is shiver'd,
       And its fragments are sunk in the wave,
   Though I feel that my soul is deliver'd
        To pain — it shall not be its slave.
   There is many a pang to pursue me:
       They may crush, but they shall not contemn —
   They may torture, but shall not subdue me —
       'Tis of thee that I think — not of them.
   
    Though human, thou didst not deceive me,
       Though woman, thou didst not forsake,
   Though loved, thou forborest to grieve me,
       Though slander'd, thou never could'st shake, —
   Though trusted, thou didst not betray me,
        Though parted, it was not to fly,
   Though watchful, 'twas not to defame me,
       Nor, mute, that the world might belie.
   
   Yet I blame not the world, nor despise it,
       Nor the war of the many with one —
    If my soul was not fitted to prize it
       'Twas folly not sooner to shun:
   And if dearly that error hath cost me,
       And more than I once could foresee,
   I have found that, whatever it lost me,
        It could not deprive me of thee.
   
   From the wreck of the past, which hath perish'd,
       Thus much I at least may recall,
   It hath taught me that which I most cherish'd
       Deserved to be dearest of all:
    In the desert a fountain is springing,
       In the wide waste there still is a tree,
   And a bird in the solitude singing,
       Which speaks to my spirit of thee.

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Re: Poetry Fanats 2008
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2010, 04:40:05 PM »
Digging up this useless topic, dedicated to BlowJob.
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