Author Topic: Cars and rules for 2015  (Read 4933 times)

CTG

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2015, 08:40:57 PM »
Special events: I think they can take place even besides the basic race. Maybe in the middle of the month, because it was proved that the activity is the lowest then.

Hmmm... sounds reasonable.

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2015, 09:59:08 PM »
Still no answer, but hey it's ok. It won't be my season anyway :)
Then I don't understand the question, sorry :(

Public replays are not that much work anyway, because they come from storing replays in the database. And that work needs to be done because Zak is probably fed up to comb through every submission, every month, to manually find the correct replays. 162 races, 20+ replays per race, Zak has gone through thousands of replays for us!

On the other end, I am a newbie and I found starting on ZakStunts extremely difficult and unrewarding. Joining a team made it easier, but I was really lucky to race with Renato and Friker, see their laps and learn their tricks. The normal level of frustration for newbies is much higher, and I am not surprised if people appear, race once and never again.

I have friends who loved Stunts and would enjoy a race, but ZakStunts is a blind tool-assisted speed-run with monthly deadlines, not basic racing. Speed-run is fun, tool-assisted is inevitable (RH) but blind is frustrating for most people. Remove blindness with public replays, and I believe more people would be interested.

After all, I have more fun on USC than ZakStunts for exactly this reason. I can look at a couple of CTG, AbuRaf or Duplode's laps and come up with my own decent replays, learn what can be done, where to look for shortcuts, etc. Without a team, in ZakStunts, I can only facepalm when the podium replays are published.

LTB: the current system is fine, working for ages. However, giving a point after 1 hour of leading... I don't really like it.
Do you think something like 6 or 12 hours would be better?

Special events: I think they can take place even besides the basic race. Maybe in the middle of the month, because it was proved that the activity is the lowest then.
I like what Akoss suggestes. Live races, suprise tracks, OWOOT, anything actually. Maybe we can take turns or book a month? E.g., I'll organise something for January, CTG for February, etc?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 10:02:13 PM by dreadnaut »

CTG

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2015, 10:18:30 PM »
Do you think something like 6 or 12 hours would be better?

Yes. Or, as I mentioned above, LT counting should start when there are already 2 or 3 pipsqueaks on the scoreboard.

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2015, 11:31:11 PM »
Yes. Or, as I mentioned above, LT counting should start when there are already 2 or 3 pipsqueaks on the scoreboard.

That sounds like a good idea, but would be a pain to implement in the current system. Let's say 2016 ::)

alanrotoi

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2015, 12:01:17 AM »
I mean: There aren't new pipsqueaks since years (old game, none advertising, etc) so I don't understand why to make rules for them.

It's just a comment.

CTG

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:47 AM »
I mean: There aren't new pipsqueaks since years

Dreadnaut? Afullo?

Post-ZCT100 pipsqueaks are newbies.

Duplode

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2015, 12:51:31 AM »
ZakStunts is a blind tool-assisted speed-run with monthly deadlines, not basic racing. Speed-run is fun, tool-assisted is inevitable (RH) but blind is frustrating for most people. Remove blindness with public replays, and I believe more people would be interested.

That's an insightful way of putting it!

Chulk

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2015, 06:22:58 AM »
I agree with almost everything you guys suggested, except for shorter races. The main reason I haven't joined for a while is that I lack the time to race seriously, so I'd rather not race at all (I hate sending listfillers). On the other hand, public replay take away some of the time needed to find the shortcuts and main line, so it could work.
This year should be a little lighter than 2014, so I'll probably join.

PS: Live races when activity is lowest would be awesome!
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Akoss Poo

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2015, 01:44:32 PM »
Another idea: if the car bonus system stays, I would recommend to help popular cars to be re-driven again and somehow hinder the unpopular ones. For example the bonus percentage growth could be higher for popular cars and lower for unpopular ones (based for example on a car popularity index obtained from the votes of the regular non-ghost drivers of 2014).

80 percent guest tracks. Well, much better idea than using retro/mirrored/reverse tracks. I would build one this year again, dunno when exactly. I would really like to see tracks from regular pipsqueaks. Idea: guest track designing option for the best driver of the previous track who haven't built a track yet in the given year (can be refused by him/her).
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dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2015, 11:39:23 PM »
Another idea: if the car bonus system stays, I would recommend to help popular cars to be re-driven again and somehow hinder the unpopular ones.

I'd like a more flexible bonus system, since good cars sometimes get stuck at the bottom of the scale for months, while others are used more than once. Voting might be complicated though.

Maybe each month the designer of the track could have 10-15 bonus points and assign them to the cars he thinks the track is better suited for?

It's just a comment.

But Alan, do you think that public replays are just useless without newbies, or that they would be a problem for everyone else?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:41:19 PM by dreadnaut »

zaqrack

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2015, 09:41:23 AM »
Another idea: if the car bonus system stays, I would recommend to help popular cars to be re-driven again and somehow hinder the unpopular ones.

I'd like a more flexible bonus system, since good cars sometimes get stuck at the bottom of the scale for months, while others are used more than once. Voting might be complicated though.

Maybe each month the designer of the track could have 10-15 bonus points and assign them to the cars he thinks the track is better suited for?


This is a nice idea but would lead to the bonus inflation problem we had earlier - ever-increasing bonuses lead to ridiculous amount of distortion between the driven time and displayed time amongst the top cars.
Given the fact the usual points rotation is around 40 coefficient points / month, I would say it would be a fair decision to let the track designer distribute +10 and -10 points amongst the cars. 

I also think he +1 / +2 / +3 increase system has little use. We could use +3 all the time. It really makes no difference whether the winner cars get -40 or -42 points distributed. This would make automation of car coefficient maintenance also a lot simpler.

As for the other rule changes, my suggestion is the following based on the discussion:

- 4 week track intervals, ending always on Saturday evenings GMT. Preferred start of season this weekend or next weekend.
- First two weeks (14 days) with public replays, last 2 days (Friday-Saturday) quiet days as till now.
- LTB hours do not accumulate but we lower the threshold of +1LTB to 24 hours
- no EB, 3 worst results do not count.
 

 

 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:46:43 AM by zaqrack »

Akoss Poo

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2015, 10:11:08 AM »
'Fantastic'...

That would mean only slight changes. For me:

- 3 tracks can be missed without any penalty (no EB)
- the first two weeks can be dismissed, my only work can be to download the other drivers' replays, then drive and maybe go for +1 LTB which would be easier
- the same amount of shitty cars have to be driven throughout the year, no suitable car-track combo can be chosen
- no past drivers will come back since the format and the spirit of the competition stays the same
- programming difficulty/convenience factors are still more important than the fun factor of the drivers
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zaqrack

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2015, 11:30:55 AM »
- 3 tracks can be missed without any penalty (no EB)
Should it be two tracks instead?
I think the EB is highly counter-productive and has played a significant role in decreasing the number of serious pipsqueaks joining in the midst of the season.

- the first two weeks can be dismissed, my only work can be to download the other drivers' replays, then drive and maybe go for +1 LTB which would be easier
This is a true if you are result-oriented but many pipsqueaks do not shoot for the podium necessarily but come to have fun and enjoy racing - the initial days/weeks where the right car and the right shortcuts have to be found is the most fun period for them - and they do not really send replays in the second half of the month, when the fun is over. Replay sending and LTB statistics clearly show this pattern.

- the same amount of shitty cars have to be driven throughout the year, no suitable car-track combo can be chosen
Not true. +10 bonus point added to a car is plenty - and the track designer can decide to add all to one car. Of course you cannot "revive" the Indy right after an Indy race, but you can pick any car in the "pack" and add +10 to make it a serious contender. You don't like the two cars with a high bonus currently? Add -5 to both. All you have to do is to be the track designer - so there goes the motivation factor to encourage drivers to submit tracks :)

- no past drivers will come back since the format and the spirit of the competition stays the same
I don't think they would come back if the format would change. They may come back for the special events, live races and other contests such as something like the Christmas Cup. 

- programming difficulty/convenience factors are still more important than the fun factor of the drivers
All these factors are important. If you read my above replies carefully, you can see the fun factor of the drivers has taken a role in all suggestions. Most pipsqueaks do not come to win. They come to play. The rules and system must encourage these pipsqueaks to stay.
Convenience is also important as I was seriously considering shutting down ZakStunts if not for the automatic reply-publishing engine implemented by dreadnaut. Programming difficulty is also an important factor as well, as I would rather not delay the competition start by several weeks to allow dreadnaut finish coding significant changes to the system. (would take even more time if I would need to do the coding :))
 

Usrin

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2015, 06:49:21 PM »
Unfortunately I was also away from the forum for a long time - but now I'm looking forward to the new season!

My opinion about the suggestions, briefly:

- Custom cars: I still can't see them as true parts of Stunts, so I'd prefer to use them less often. But if I could keep only one, that would be Skoda!

- LTB: for me it doesn't really matter. :)

- EB: I agree that it should be forgotten. Regular pipsqueaks will be still rewarded, as they can have more weak results which do not count.

- Intervals: I agree with Akoss Poo. Some of us (like me) can hardly find time for racing even within a month. Shorter periods would mean less pipsqueaks on a track.

- Cars: it seems that the opinions are different. Can't we have the bonus system in a part of the year, and tracks designated for a given car in some months?

- Public replays: I don't really see the point of it. Especially as long as beginners (if there are any...) can race in USC if they prefer this style.

- Special events: that would be fun, but I can only hope I'll have time for participating... Long racing periods (1 month also for the special tracks) are preferred.
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dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2015
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2015, 10:25:18 PM »
If during the season we see that public replays are a problem we can try and reduce the public period to 10 days or a week, instead of 15. But I'd rather give them a chance instead of not even trying.

Zak: tomorrow afternoon I have time to complete the changes and test them. I expect to be done before evening :)  For the public replays, I'll leave a parameter, so we can go from zero to any number of days of public replays, and you can choose the setting.