Author Topic: Z202 - Ketiranyu  (Read 190 times)

Shoegazing Leo

  • Young Pipsqueak
  • *****
  • Posts: 2088
    • View Profile
    • Stunts LOL Classics
Z202 - Ketiranyu
« on: May 07, 2018, 04:50:59 AM »
Very curious track...

dreadnaut

  • Moderator
  • Helen`s Lover
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
    • View Profile
    • chezDreadnaut
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 09:32:33 PM »
Very curious track...

Ouch —when I reviewed I saw the potential for dual-way switching, but I thought I had fixed the worst options adding the smaller rivers. It seems that I missed one though.

Do you guys think the track is broken at this point? Would it help to add another square of water to kill the current shortcut—which makes the race a bit boring—and restart?

Cas

  • Bernie's Brother
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
    • Dimioca Labs
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2018, 09:22:44 PM »
In my opinion, while short, the track is still interesting, but GTAMan should have the last word
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

Duplode

  • Considering trying out spam
  • *******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Through the astral door - to soar
    • View Profile
    • The Southern Cross Stunts Trophy
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 03:37:58 AM »
Though I haven't actually driven in this track or watched any replays yet, if Cas' message on the shoutbox...

Quote from: Cas
OK. Let's start playing dirty, ha, ha XD - Honestly, I didn't know that dual-way switching could be done wrong-way :P

... means what I think it means, there is an ancient precedent in ZakStunts according to which wrong way shortcuts are forbidden. This issue has last shown up in Z136 (see also). This situation in Z85 might also be relevant, but I can't say for sure as I haven't driven yet  :)

Cas

  • Bernie's Brother
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
    • Dimioca Labs
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 09:59:35 PM »
Well, my feeling on this particular track is that, yes, the shorcut shortens the track significantly. Still, I have the feeling that, depending on the skilll of each pipsqueak, and the perseverance (I've learnt to use the latter recently XD), one can improve a lot. I mean, it's not that it loses all its magic. But it depends on GTAMan whether he feels his track is being properly raced or not (I think).

In general, my opinion on dual-way switching is that it may be disappointing when it's found on a track that one expected to race in a more normal way, but also, it can be an amazing part of track design itself. Making a track that purposedly allows dual-way switching with some difficulty and in different ways adds a lot of spice to the race. What is not clearly defined is what happens when a track that was not originally intended for this trick seems to be well received with the trick included, even by the author. I believe under these circumstances, the last word should always go to the track author. On the other hand, it could be a good rule that, upon posting a new track and before the race starts, if the track contains split, the author should specify whether dual-way switching will be allowed or not.

EDIT: I want to add that my message in the shoutbox was an answer, not a proposal. Replays using dual-way switching on this track had already been posted, so I commented that and then posted mine. I was not the first person to post using that trick.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 01:04:36 AM by Cas »
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

afullo

  • Stunts Maniac
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
    • DoomItalia
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 06:49:08 PM »
It should be added that, in this case, it seems that the author was not aware of the dual-way trick, since shortly after I posted the first replay with that cut, he asked why no penalty time was added. Nevertheless, there is also the GAR competition, so in my opinion we can keep the race as it is, with the gentlemen agreement rules compelling to proceed on the whole track, for those interested in playing them (maybe I will submit a lap too) ;)

Cas

  • Bernie's Brother
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
    • Dimioca Labs
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 10:57:35 PM »
I agree with Afullo!
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

Duplode

  • Considering trying out spam
  • *******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Through the astral door - to soar
    • View Profile
    • The Southern Cross Stunts Trophy
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2018, 03:39:58 PM »
Quote from: Duplode on the shoutbox
My remarks on the forum [...] suggesting there might be an issue were made thinking of something much more sinister.

Here is a demonstration. (I'm not posting it as a competition replay as I don't feel it should be legal.)

Cas

  • Bernie's Brother
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
    • Dimioca Labs
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2018, 06:51:18 AM »
Before you mentioned this in the shoutbox, I didn't know it could be done. As I said before, I agree that shouldn't be legal and I like the idea of simply not allowing the same path to be followed twice in different directions. Alan's shortcut, on the other hand, while simple and extreme, I would think of as legal, as long as the author has agreed that DWS can be used on their track.

Now the thing is what should we assume by default?  I think that, to leave no doubt, whenever there is more than one path, the author should be asked about their choice. If that is not done, we'd have to see what his (or her) reaction is when the first pipsqueak chooses to do DWS. My personal feeling on this track is that it has been extremely successful as things developed.
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

Duplode

  • Considering trying out spam
  • *******
  • Posts: 3454
  • Through the astral door - to soar
    • View Profile
    • The Southern Cross Stunts Trophy
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2018, 10:09:53 AM »
In my eyes, it boils down to:
  • Dual-way switching is an integral part of free rules racing.
  • Two-tile-wrong-way dual-way cuts of the sort we are discussing here are evil.
On the first point, I believe dual-way switching should be allowed by default. That said, I agree the track designer should be able to disallow it. There are precedents for dual-way switching being forbidden in specific ZakStunts tracks: Zak made it so mid-race in both Z127 and Z146, after discussion among the pipsqueaks revealed broad support for it (the Z146 thread has some interesting comments). Explicitly asking the designer might make sense, especially if the track designer isn't yet aware of the full range of cuts dual-way switching makes possible. (A side effect of asking beforehand might be increasing a lot how often it is disallowed, but perhaps there is no need to worry about that.)

On the second point, two-tile cuts have pretty much always been deemed as illegal through an unwritten rule, enforced by Zak whenever it became a problem (one precedent is Z136, in which wrong way driving was forbidden with the specific purpose of making a two-tile cut impossible). I mostly like afullo's suggestion of disallowing driving the same stretch of track to be driven in both ways. There is one potential problem, though: depending on how it is interpreted, end up ruling out some power gear lines which rely on slides across sections of the track. I will try to find some actual examples of that later on.

afullo

  • Stunts Maniac
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
    • DoomItalia
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2018, 11:33:05 AM »
That's basically also my opinion. I would worry a bit just about the possibility of the first dubious replay being posted in the late part of the four-week span, while concerning powergear lines some exceptions could be admitted.

GTAMan15

  • Stunts Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2018, 06:06:41 PM »
You guys can see, that i played using DWS too, and sorry for my inactivity.
I immediately allowed using DWS on the track, so that's not against the rules
Maybe there pipsqueaks here who doesn't allow, but i allowed it.

I also didn't know of this bug  :D

Cas

  • Bernie's Brother
  • **
  • Posts: 212
    • View Profile
    • Dimioca Labs
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2018, 05:34:41 AM »
It'd be very interesting to see an example of what Duplode mentions. Still, I do agree too. It's OK if one, for example, temporarily takes a path in the wrong way to be able to reach a loop they can use to get to powergear and then resume the race at full speed, things like that. I supposed this could be solved as follows: it is not allowed to drive wrong way on a path that's already been driven in the right direction. That is, you are still allowed to drive in the right direction on a path that's already driven wrong way. Or more simply and more general: wrong way driving is only allowed on previously undriven paths. Would that solve it?

GTA, I too noticed you felt comfortable with the trick, but it's great that you state clearly that you allow it, to clear all doubt.
Duplode, yes, maybe asking on a choice would make a greater tendency for authors toward disallowing while there might be no problem.
GTA, had you been asked when posting your track if you would want to allow DWS (and explained what it was), do you think you would've said "yes" before you saw how things evolved?  If I had been the author of the track, I probably would've come back to the drawing board to study it. I would've wanted to allow it, but would want to make sure nothing too drastic could be done. Still, I wouldn't have seen the tricks in advance.

It's very interesting. It looks like every track is one track when first posted and another track once it's been raced. Once you know what the design can lead to, you look at it differently. You see much more. And as Afullo says, there's also the GAR option, which ensures there will be a more standard approach to the track, so its spirit won't be in danger. If rules can make a track so different, yet each set of rules provides for a track that's just as valid... Is the track what's on the grid or the experience of it?  Maybe the latter is not to be called the "track", but the "race". In that case, I'm thinking that the true challenge for an author is to design a race while creating the track. Very hard thing to do! :)
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

GTAMan15

  • Stunts Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2018, 06:38:33 AM »
Cas, i wasn't asked, but i watched replays with the trick, and so i allowed it to make less than 1 minute lap times

GTAMan15

  • Stunts Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Z202 - Ketiranyu
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 04:06:36 PM »
This track was made by GTAMan15 and Dreadnaut