Author Topic: Cars and rules for 2020  (Read 144 times)

dreadnaut

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Cars and rules for 2020
« on: December 16, 2019, 04:01:56 PM »
Hello everyone, and welcome to the future!
It's 2020, we all have jetpacks, and robots that serve us cocktails. But we still play Stunts, because some videogames age better than others.

While the game stays the same, the Competition is open to rules changes. This thread is here to collect and discuss suggestions, and also to decide which custom cars will be allowed for the coming season.

See also: Cars and rules for 2019

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 04:11:58 PM by dreadnaut »

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 04:11:13 PM »
I'll start with these ideas:
- rotate the DTM cars, swapping the BMW for the Mercedes
- keep the SuperKart
- replace the Ford Ranger

Rules:
- as a minimum, I would like to fix the LTB code so that it gives consistent results
- what about keeping "unused" LTB hours between races?
- what about "podium time" (first three positions) instead of "leading time" (first only)?

afullo

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 04:36:54 PM »
I'll start with these ideas:
- rotate the DTM cars, swapping the BMW for the Mercedes
- keep the SuperKart
- replace the Ford Ranger

They are ok for me.  ;)

Rules:
- as a minimum, I would like to fix the LTB code so that it gives consistent results
- what about keeping "unused" LTB hours between races?

Are you meaning that if in a certain race only a +2 is awarded because a rac3r is at the top from the beginning until the end, the not awarded +1 flows in a sort of "jackpot", so more points can be attributed the following race?

- what about "podium time" (first three positions) instead of "leading time" (first only)?

It could be a good idea, but we would have to choose whether to consider all the first three positions with the same dignity (so there are simply counted the hours relative to being to the podium instead of being leader), or not (and the points' system would have to be redesigned).

Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 06:01:52 PM »
I like the podium time suggestion, I made a suggestion in the old thread that is completely different but has a similar intention:

Quote
A semi-interesting brain fart I just had: would it be easy to implement a delay in public replays being posted, like say 12 or 24 hours? Like an extra button that says "public after delay"? It might slow down the collective efforts to find the fastest route a bit, but it would also reward innovation with a chance at LTB points. I'm thinking of calling it the "Oh god what if Marco (or Overdrijf, let's be honest here) comes online somewhere in the next few hours"-mechanic. 8)

Basically: The LTB is intended to motivate people to race and innovate, but they only really work for people contending for the top spot, and even then they don't always have the intended effect.

For example, in ZCT 214: Accuracy Gutix posted the most important replay of the race, using the Indy he proved that yes, this is a powergear track. He got 3 LTB hours for that before I posted my version of his lap. I'm in favor of any kind of solution that allows people to more consistently reap rewards from their inventive work. Even if I don't really know what kind of idea might work best.

On the upside a podium bonus might allow the subtop to compete for LTB points a lot more (I think? The logic is actually kind of fuzzy...). A downside could be that when two great players go at it fanatically they both might end up with basically 600 podium hours and their feud is decided by something silly like who started 2 hours earlier.

I like the smaller changes to the car bonuses. This season some of the cars got quite a bit of extra spotlight because the new balance hadn't been properly shot in yet, but even so half the races gave us a two-car podium.

I also think it's good to think about the manual car bonuses, maybe either decrease them in size or make them temporary (they revert for the next race)? They feel a bit more powerful than intended right now. (Even though every downside has an upside, they're a good tool for adjusting the car balance. If only we had a better idea of where that balance sits at any point.)

Cas

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2019, 10:41:58 PM »
About the cars, I agree totally!

About the LTB, this is something that rarely has had any effect on me, since I'm not a top pipsqueak and have never been, but the ideas I'm reading sound good. I would like to also add something that I had thought of in the past for R4K, but never implemented because it doesn't make much sense unless the number of participants is reasonable. This does not have to "replace" LTB; it could go with it. But now that I'm reading, it may be good to replace LTB with podium bonus, plus my idea or something similar. My concept goes something like this:

- We'll call this "X-points" during the explanation
- When the race starts, every player not having posted any replay so far is accumulating zero X-points per time-unit
- When a pipsqueak first posts a replay, if he is not last, he starts accumulating one X-point per time-unit. Any pipsqueak below him from that moment is reset to accumulating zero X-points per unit-time
- If a pipsqueak posts a new replay after having been on the table, his X-point accumulation status will only change if he manages to upgrade his position at least one step, that is, if the new position has more pipsqueaks below than the old position. Otherwise, he'll remain at either zero or one X-point per time-unit

This process sounds cumbersome when anaylised this way, which is the way the system would see it, but if seen qualitatively, it's very simple: you get more X-points if you make sure nobody is surpassing your position and keep updating your position whenever you can. You fall behind in X-points if you just sleep. At the end of the race, these points will reflect your competitiveness. The proportion of value between X-points and podium points can be any that's deemed appropriate and these X-points could have whatever cool name that fits :)
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Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 09:18:38 AM »
I think the X-point system could have some unexpected consequences. Let's say I'm the first person who posts a replay. It's a strong replay, but I'm still last, no points start accumulating. I keep improving during the month, but I don't overtake anybody, because everyone else is slower than me (or ridiculously faster, Marco-style.

Meanwhile, one of the other teams has figured something out. They keep posting minimal improvements to their times, just barely overtaking each other every time, they get lots of X-points. EDIT: No wait, they only need to post new replays whenever someone with no time posted yet enters the board above them, otherwise it has no use, I think.

In situations like that the points may not accurately reflect effort, skill or anything else we'd want to reward. The system may be a little too open for strategic play. EDIT: also a little complex in writing, but it might be clearer in action.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 09:21:14 AM by Overdrijf »

Cas

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2020, 12:56:47 AM »
Humm.... Yeah, I see how the system could be unfair in teams. This could be resolved if X-points only affected individual player positions in the season scoreboard, but not team positions. That is, two team mates would not be able to accumulate points for the team by passing each other over and over again. But still, one could help their team members achieve individual higher scores.

Another fix could be that you only get X-points the first time you pass a pipsqueak in that race and you don't get X-points for passing a pipsqueak that's registered this year (to avoid creation of ghosts).

Anyway, this is just one example of what could be done about it. I don't mean to propose something to be implemented just as I imagined. It's an idea that anybody could build upon or modify or get inspired on to create something else. Maybe something very different, but with the same intentions.
Earth is my country. Science is my religion.

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 12:48:13 AM »
I'll start with these ideas:
- rotate the DTM cars, swapping the BMW for the Mercedes
- keep the SuperKart
- replace the Ford Ranger

Following the points above:
- BMW DTM is out, replaced by Mercedes-Benz DTM
- Ford Ranger is out, replaced by the Toyota Sprinter Trueno

Can anyone help with the side pictures for the two new cars? :)

Cas

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 08:22:32 AM »
It's really late tonight. Tomorrow, when I finish work, if nobody has yet posted the pictures, I'll make them :)
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dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2020, 10:19:17 PM »
It's really late tonight. Tomorrow, when I finish work, if nobody has yet posted the pictures, I'll make them :)

Sleep tight, Overdrijf helped :)

Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 11:19:07 PM »
I like the idea from the start of the season post to let unused leading hours carry over. That's probably the most realistic option to let LTB hours motivate everyone, if you get 3 days in several races you could still grab points eventually. I'm in favor.

There might be a bit of an issue with the +1 bonus. The +2 bonus already tends to go to someone who has been in the lead for at least half the current race. +1can require nearly the other half, or you can get lucky and grab it for 48 hours. So there's more randomness in the payoff, in how many races you need to save to get a point. I'd almost suggest to tally everyone's leading hours over the entire year and hand out points as if it was a thirteenth race instead, but only almost.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 11:50:14 PM by Overdrijf »

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 08:05:45 PM »
I like the idea from the start of the season post to let unused leading hours carry over. That's probably the most realistic option to let LTB hours motivate everyone, if you get 3 days in several races you could still grab points eventually. I'm in favor.

I thought about this a bit more, and came up with these numbers:
- a 28-day race means 672 hours
- we have 12 races, so 8064 hours in a season
- in the existing system, we assign at most 3 LTB points per race, for a total of 36

We could change the system so that one LTB point is assigned as soon as a pipsqueak collects 8064/36 = 224 hours of leading time. We can round that to 240 hours, ten days, so that no-one can collect 3 points in the same race. At most, 33 LTB points will be assigned over the course of a year, with 144 hours left over.

An average of 20 hours per race are enough to collect an LTB point at the end of the season. With the existing system, most of the time, you would need multiple days, and a good amount of luck, across multiple races.

Collected points are carried over to the next race, even across season.

Comments? Graphs? Obvious pitfalls I have not considered?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:11:07 PM by dreadnaut »

Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2020
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 02:27:16 PM »
That's probably even better. Nice and consistent.

The downside compared to the current system is that the LTB experience becomes a thing separate from the race you're currently racing. There's less motivation to drive now because a good time could secure that point. But it does motivate to consistently race early and race strong.