Author Topic: Team competition changes  (Read 1258 times)

dreadnaut

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Team competition changes
« on: April 21, 2021, 12:30:24 AM »
Thinking about teams, I was wondering if there are any improvements we could make to the way they work. Random thoughts I've had follow, let's see what sticks ;D

Members and participation:
- Limit teams size to three members (currently four)
- Race participation counts for at least one point (currently only the best two results count)
- One member can, optionally, be an "intern"
- The intern should be a newbie at the time of joining the team
- The intern can only be in that position for X (12?) months
- Intern participation counts for at least 2 points

(alternatively, teams of two members, plus an extra slot for the intern?)

Newbie teams:
- Double points to a team of newbies?

Teams tracks:
- A member designs the track
- Another writes the summary at the end of the race :P
- Extra points if... something on that track?
- Optional?

Let me know what you think, we have ~6 months to come up with something :)

Daniel3D

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 07:48:32 AM »
Your newbie ideas assume the new player has a lesser skill. Kylie counts as newbie this season. If i had made a team with him for double points that would be unfair.

How about a little league. Those who are not top 12 (or so) can opt for this. Sort of best of the rest...
Its a freestyle for those who are not skilled in those "magic" shortcuts, turning in mid-air, powergear/magic carpets and advanced RH.
The seasoned drivers will know when they are not supposed to opt in  ;)

Edit, typos and clarification.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 02:48:35 PM by Daniel3D »
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KyLiE

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 01:35:49 PM »
I think that the current system already works well.  Like Daniel3D said, assuming that a newbie is less skilled than a long-term member could cause issues.  If any changes are to be made though, I think that it is important to keep it simple.  What are you looking to achieve?

Daniel3D

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 02:57:32 PM »
Thinking about teams, I was wondering if there are any improvements we could make to the way they work. Random thoughts I've had follow, let's see what sticks ;D
I think that teams work best is even number, 2 or 4.
and then in case of 4, in 2 pairs. primary and secondairy.

the team can share tips and tricks with each other (the secondary team can be newbies or members of lesser skill)
in case of a member dropping out of the primary a secondairy member can take its place for team points.

that way, team points are always based on 2 players.
but bigger teams have a "driving school and backup members"

(idea stolen of F1, with redbull and its sub team, something with rossa, 8) )
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Duplode

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 06:09:21 PM »
The most sensitive matter here is probably the maximum team size. I don't think 2 (or 2+1) is workable. 3 feels more feasible, though it would force Rolling Stunts and possibly Traction Faction to restructure, as well as Cork's Crew to give up its fourth seat (which is reserved for an eventual Bonzai Joe comeback). Maybe such side-effects are part of the plan, though? Like KyLiE, I think we should talk about the goals of a team competition reform.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 12:38:48 AM by Duplode »

Cas

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 09:53:49 PM »
I find these ideas innovative and refreshing in their intention and I think it'd be worthwhile to discuss more on them, because surely something very good can result from such discussion. However, like the guys mention, I feel we should start by setting the goals of changes like the ones described and in particular, making teams smaller would lead to a number of inconveniences. Don't take me wrong: I do see why Dreadnaut is proposing this. Some pipsqueaks are in teams of two while others are in teams of four and some don't even have a team. There are newbies and also, something that has not been discussed: there are pipsqueaks in hiatus. This should also be put in the equation. Probably, a dynamic way of forming teams for each season should be up instead of teams just continuing as they are unless somebody decides to make a change.
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dreadnaut

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2021, 12:39:31 AM »
What are you looking to achieve?

I think my actual aim is for this discussion to happen :D   It's important to poke traditions now and then, to make sure that they are still relevant and enjoyable. That doesn't mean that anything needs to change, in particular for the sake of change itself.

Teams have had the current structure for more than a decade. I think they are performing well, but I can see some of pain points:
- newbies rarely having a chance to be in a team with an expert pipsqueak
- when they do, a lot of effort might not be enough to bring any points if they are eternally third, or fourth, affecting motivation
- it's very difficult for a newer team to challenge strong historical teams, which might make things less interesting for both

Can we make teams a better way of learning the game, and return some uncertainty to the team scoreboard?


Your newbie ideas assume the new player has a lesser skill. Kylie counts as newbie this season. If i had made a team with him for double points that would be unfair.
Unfair to whom? ???

How about a little league. Those who are not top 12 (or so) can opt for this. Sort of best of the rest...
There was a time when ZakStunts had an A and B competition. It didn't last for more than a year I think. It makes for short scoreboards, and I would expect recrimination as mid-level pipsqueaks rule the lower scoreboard instead of moving to the higher one and placing last.


alanrotoi

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2021, 03:20:41 AM »
Can we make teams a better way of learning the game, and return some uncertainty to the team scoreboard?

What about a system that chooses random teammates? A montly selection of teammates. It would be more fair, but it might not be so popular.

KyLiE

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2021, 04:48:10 AM »
Long-standing traditions are often difficult and painful to break.  As a way to motivate newbies to learn new skills and to make the team scoreboard a little more interesting, you could:
  • Limit teams to three members with the exception of a fourth member, provided they are a newbie.
  • Have race participation count for one point.
  • As the tournament manager, actively invite newbies to join teams with experienced members where possible.
However, one possible issue with allowing a newbie as a fourth member is that once they are no longer a newbie, unless the original team members want to restructure, they will need to find another team to join.

When managing teams, just like in school, sometimes the teacher has to step in and choose the team members to make things competitive and fair.  Initially, not everyone might be happy about this, but in the end, everyone usually ends up having fun.

Cas

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2021, 07:09:54 PM »
Another idea would be to do something similar as what's done in PE class at school:

At the end of a season, take the first N pipsqueaks from the season podium where N should be the number of active pipsqueaks divided by the number of pipsqueaks per team. Both these values are debatable, though. What does it mean for a pipsqueak to be active?  That has to be determined.

Anyway, with that done, these first N pipsqueaks become the "captains" and can choose team names, logos, etc. Then in turns, each of them will pick one available pipsqueak from the pool and add it to his/her team.

This method will prevent:
- Some active pipsqueaks having no team
- More than one very skilled pipsqueak in the same team

Additionally, the picking can be done in secrecy among the captains and the results posted at the end, so that the order in which pipsqueaks were picked for each team is not publicly known and nobody feels better or worse, more loved or more hated, ha, ha.
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afullo

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2021, 02:00:14 AM »
What about keeping the team maximum size at four, but giving the team score as the sum of the two best pipsqueaks plus the best newbie (in case he or she is one of them, the sum of the best three) ?

This would encourage stronger teams to hire one or two newbies, maybe at the cost of excluding people which have not been active for years; of course it has to be considered the possibility to let players being newbies for more than 18 months, if too few of them are regulars. The code for computing scores should be a little fine-tuned in the case, but I think it would be basically possible.

Overdrijf

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2021, 02:44:59 PM »
As a member of a bit of a legacy team with 4 members of which I am, since 2010, the most recent, I am not sure how I feel about limiting teams to 3 pipsqueaks.

Particularly since we barely manage to field 2 active players per race as it is.  :-[

Daniel3D

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Re: Team competition changes
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2021, 10:28:04 PM »
How about,.. Keeping things as they are and add some optional rules,.

Team has to have minimal 2 members,   (as it is now i believe)
Top two scores count for team scores ..  (as it is now i believe)
    (on a team with more than 2 strong drivers that could prove profitable)
if a team has 4 drivers they can opt to have a A and a B team of each 2 drivers,
That way the 2 weaker members still have team points, (if you split the team you have to declare who is in A or B)

How about a little league. Those who are not top 12 (or so) can opt for this. Sort of best of the rest...
Its a freestyle for those who are not skilled in those "magic" shortcuts, turning in mid-air, powergear/magic carpets and advanced RH.
The seasoned drivers will know when they are not supposed to opt in  ;)
I still like this idea personally.. the option can be like the GAR option. You also go to the main scoreboard.
But if you have(or get) a better time on the main scoreboard that doesn't qualify for little league your times are removed from the little league board.
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