Author Topic: Newbie scoreboard and progression  (Read 545 times)

dreadnaut

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Newbie scoreboard and progression
« on: September 19, 2021, 10:45:24 AM »
We already know that they way newbies are calculated is a bit broken, and the number of months a pipsqueak has been around is not a good measure of their skills.

How can we improve the system?

Note: this is not about a full split into pro and newbie divisions. That has been tried before, and reverted. A separate competition can rise to cover that role, if needed, and if someone starts it.

dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2021, 11:00:41 AM »
My first idea starts from a principle. I think everyone would find the competition more entertaining if there was a way to choose the level of difficulty, up to a certain point.

Currently people are kicked out of the newbie league after a fixed amount of time, whatever the number of races they took part in, or their results. Some linger as newbies far longer than they should, other would enjoy are more relaxed induction, or simply to race at a different level.

My vague proposal, a first iterative step:
  • Rename "newbies" to "amateurs" more or less everywhere (except the Newbie Guide)
  • When a pipsqueak signs up, they start as an amateur
  • Amateur results appear on both the global and the amateur-only scoreboard (as it happens now)
  • An amateur loses their status when one of these happens:
    • they voluntary choose to do so
    • they finish a race in the global top 6 (or 3?)
    • they finish a season in the global top 8 (or 6?)
    • they win the amateur championship 2 (3?) times, non necessarily in a row
  • Once you leave the amateur group, there is no going back

Above, in parantheses, more "lenient" criteria.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 11:06:29 AM by dreadnaut »

Ryoma

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2021, 11:29:43 AM »
It's a very good idea...for me it's too late because you disgusted me a lot...and I think I will do something else (I have a lot of car idea...but I lost all motivation)

Don't forget the GAR compétition for Heretic for example.
Disappointed having unfairly lost the newbies race zct238.

dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2021, 12:07:49 PM »
for me it's too late because you disgusted me a lot...

Well, that's interesting feedback to get, but still better than no feedback! I'll also assume some level of lost-in-translation here 😅

Would you like to go into more detail about what you found "disgusting", and what difficult?

Overdrijf

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2021, 01:07:35 PM »
I was whining at Ryoma on the Zakstunts message board when I looked at what I typed and figured I might actually be onto an idea here, so I'm posting is here too. (Copied from there.)

We could try marking pipsqueak's names on the scoreboard for "has won a race before" (super league, or wait, do we need an ultra tier for season winners?), "has placed on the podium before" (gold league), "has finished in the upper one third of the board before" (silver league) and "everyone else" (bronze league, or do we need another distinction within this one?). That might actually help newer drivers judge who they should see as their competition quicker. KyLiE would have won gold league this round and Heretic would have been this month's silver league winner, as an example. And I think Cas would have won bronze league, but I did not check all his results for whether they fell on the top 1/3 of the board or not.

It might also chase people away because it smells like elitism though... Another alternative might be that you always start in the lowest league and are promoted based on internal end of the year results, but that honestly sounds like it has too many moving parts.

After reading Dreadnaut's proposal in this thread (this bit is no longer copied) I honestly think his idea is probably better in several ways, be it less scalable. That is to say: I like how there are multiple measurements of pipsqueak quality, multiple measurements are usually more accurate than a single one. It also provides both internal (winning the amateur league) and external (placing xth overall) measurements, which is nice. But I'm not sure if you could build that concept out to something with more than two or three ranks. While if you keep the system simpler you can add as many ranks as you like.

This still doesn't feel like something important to me, because I've been here long enough that I know who I should be aiming at beating, depending on lots of different factors like "how much time do I have this month?" and "do I like this track?" as well. But it might be useful for people who are not me?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 01:12:48 PM by Overdrijf »

KyLiE

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2021, 01:28:38 PM »
Igor, a fellow newbie, has mentioned to me on several occasions that he finds many of the tracks too daunting to race competitively with freestyle rules, which is why he hasn't participated lately.  As for the GAR competition, he simply doesn't have the time or the patience for it.

Personally, I don't have any issues with the newbie league currently.  As for competing against people with a similar skill level, I think the main scoreboard achieves this already.  I mean, you're racing against people from all over the world.  Stan 286XT is routinely at the bottom of the scoreboard, but he's participated in every race this season, so he must enjoy it.

If you were to change the newbie league, perhaps you could introduce some sort of qualifying system.  For example, your time has to be a certain percentage slower than first place in order to qualify and if you make it onto the podium for the season, then you're disqualified.  However, as Overdrijf mentioned, this would make things more complicated, which is rarely a good thing.

Overdrijf

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2021, 01:38:02 PM »
has mentioned to me on several occasions that he finds many of the tracks too daunting to race competitively with freestyle rules

Okay, I didn't think quite far into this yet. That complicates matters.

Ryoma

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2021, 03:07:22 PM »
Do as you want......
Disappointed having unfairly lost the newbies race zct238.

dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2021, 03:34:09 PM »
Igor, a fellow newbie, has mentioned to me on several occasions...

We don't really get feedback from new pipsqueaks, and that's a problem. With larger numbers you would send email surveys after a race or something like that, but we have to work with a bit of information, and much guess-work.

That's clearly a situation where more heads are better. It'd be useful to get Igor's—and any other recent starts'—viewpoint in this topic. KyLiE, could you invite him or intercede for us?

I'll also add a message for current newbies on the home page.

Daniel3D

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2021, 04:33:48 PM »
My first idea starts from a principle. I think everyone would find the competition more entertaining if there was a way to choose the level of difficulty, up to a certain point.

Currently people are kicked out of the newbie league after a fixed amount of time, whatever the number of races they took part in, or their results. Some linger as newbies far longer than they should, other would enjoy are more relaxed induction, or simply to race at a different level.

My vague proposal, a first iterative step:
  • Rename "newbies" to "amateurs" more or less everywhere (except the Newbie Guide)
  • When a pipsqueak signs up, they start as an amateur
  • Amateur results appear on both the global and the amateur-only scoreboard (as it happens now)
  • An amateur loses their status when one of these happens:
    • they voluntary choose to do so
    • they finish a race in the global top 6 (or 3?)
    • they finish a season in the global top 8 (or 6?)
    • they win the amateur championship 2 (3?) times, non necessarily in a row
  • Once you leave the amateur group, there is no going back

Above, in parantheses, more "lenient" criteria.
I largely agree with this. But it's missing something...
My own barrier to compete more (besides time) is trick's, shortcuts and powergear.

I can't grind a track to learn them. And I don't like that way of driving.
In the other hand I find GAR to strict..

So what I mean is. Skill is more than just time.
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.
It gets me nowhere in de scorebord, can't qualify for GAR.
But it's fun driving.
Maybe that can be emphasized more in the amateur/newbie league.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 05:17:08 PM by Daniel3D »
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dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2021, 05:45:58 PM »
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.

Freestyle, shortcuts, and the "anything goes" style of racing is what traditionally differentiates ZakStunts from other competitions. Not that there are many others nowadays, I know. Removing those elements would change the nature of the whole thing, which I am not keen to do.

On the other end, we don't have a good way to teach those skills to newcomers. The driving school was an brief and limited project, public replays are not that helpful. Teams and forum questions can definitely be more useful.

What do you think of the rules over at Racer4Kicks? Is that the middle ground you are thinking about?

By the way, I don't see GAR as something fundamental for ZakStunts. We can consider replacing it with a more relaxed "stay on the road" set of rules. We had that for a brief time, and I did enjoy it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 05:52:14 PM by dreadnaut »

Daniel3D

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2021, 06:43:27 PM »
I follow the road, stay on it if I can, take obstacles however suites me.

Freestyle, shortcuts, and the "anything goes" style of racing is what traditionally differentiates ZakStunts from other competitions. Not that there are many others nowadays, I know. Removing those elements would change the nature of the whole thing, which I am not keen to do.
The main competition should stay as it is. (Don't change a winning formula)
But the newbie league can have alternative rules just like gar (which has its own players so should stay)

Quote
What do you think of the rules over at Racer4Kicks? Is that the middle ground you are thinking about?
I don't feel it as middle ground. It very close to GAR.
And I think that serous competition only works at the two extremes. Well defined rules like owoot or GAR, or freestyle.
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alanrotoi

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2021, 02:09:37 AM »
There is a lot to say. For a start I think it is needed another advertising campaign to bring new pipsqueaks. Taking the example of 4dsL (2003-2004) its main purpose was to bring new and many people to the community. The key element advertising in a popular abandonware site. Now we can advertise in social media like Facebook or Instagram. Another thing to grow might be the teams. A lot of pipsqueaks joined the community from 4dsl and at least 9 zakstunts championships were won by them (Ayrton, Gutix and Duplode). Many important and very active people for the community came from 4dsl not only champions. AbuRaf70, Chulk, Paleke, Vamologocomisso, Dark Chaser, SergioBaro...

So, key items to take in mind IMHO:
  • Advertising
  • Teams
  • Social media (Facebook, Instagram, youtube etc.)

Suggestions to discuss:
  • live update (streamming the final result of the month or something like that would be fun)
  • a secondary scoreboard with OWOOTR rules + RH
  • Maybe adding an ELO system? (without changing the current point system. Something like the world rank list taking the different scoreboards inside zak's: main, GAR and OWOOTR+RH)

Personally, we would take 4dsL experience applied to 2021 internet tools.

KyLiE

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2021, 04:18:24 AM »
It'd be useful to get Igor's—and any other recent starts'—viewpoint in this topic. KyLiE, could you invite him or intercede for us?

Sure! :) I'll let you know when I hear back from him.

Duplode

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2021, 04:40:19 AM »
It seems we are in the mood for reviewing some old customs. Given we are 3 ½ months from the next season, this seems as good a time as any to have those conversations! (In particular, I'll try to post a bit more on some of the issues being raised here later.)

On advertising and outreach, though my social media clout is next to nonexistent, if anything begins to happen on platforms I'm on I'll be happy to chime in. On a broader note, it feels like this matter has to do with the observation by KyLiE and dreadnaut that we don't get to hear much from pipsqueaks (both actual and potential). Perhaps our communication channels are in fact a touch awkward...

Maybe adding an ELO system? (without changing the current point system. Something like the world rank list taking the different scoreboards inside zak's: main, GAR and OWOOTR+RH)

One of my half-finished projects from earlier this year I gotta come back to is an ELO-like performance rating for ZakStunts, so that's a discussion I'll certainly enjoy having  :) For now, just to tie back to the beginning of this thread. An ELO-like rating could be one way of redefining the newbie (beginner's, development, or what you will) league: count as beginners those pipsqueaks with at most x completed races and whose highest rating ever is at most y.