Author Topic: Newbie scoreboard and progression  (Read 3719 times)

KyLiE

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2021, 05:34:24 AM »
As promised, here is the response from Igor:

Quote
Yes, you are right explaining the "daunting" tracks lately. It's been only the last 3, prior to that they were really enjoyable.

Yes, renaming "Newbie" to "Amateur" league may be a good idea. Qualifying for the amateur league can be something like the bottom 50% of pipsqueaks (only pulling rough figures here) in the main competition qualify for the amateur league. People like you shouldn't be in the amateur league even though you are new, as you are too good. This way we amateurs can compete with each other as pipsqueaks of a similar skill level and we can feel like we are competitive amongst ourselves to reach the top of our scoreboard. If and when we become good enough, our score would push us out of the amateur league and keep us only on the main scoreboard.

I hope this makes sense, let me know if you need me to elaborate further.

Daniel3D

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2021, 12:10:15 PM »
On advertising and outreach, though my social media clout is next to nonexistent, if anything begins to happen on platforms I'm on I'll be happy to chime in.
I have a few ideas to reach new players. But that would require some advertising excuse.
Both are based on youtube channels: one with computer racing in general, the other has a lot of old game followers.
For the first I need to create some cool action content clips to contribute.
For the second I need some reason to address the game. (the 30th anniversary edition could work)
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dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2021, 07:03:06 PM »
I have to say that for me "reaching new players" is a different problem. What I would like to focus on is to make sure that any new players that are interested enough to sign up find the competition welcoming and fun. And if they don't, they tell us why.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't advertise, of course, but advertisement would not be effective if people join and leave with the same speed. Keeping 2 players out of 5 is better than 1 out of 10. In techno-babble, I would like to decrease churn before we increase subscriptions.

I'd also like to do so with the least work possible. Duplode and Overdrijf suggestions are very interesting, but setting up an ELO system takes a lot of work, and needs tuning. Too many variables are a problem, which it shares with having many ranks. I like the criteria for pipsqueak "level" though, such as winning a race, reaching a podium.

That however brings up more questions: what happens when a pipsqueak moves from one level to the next? Is it sudden? Delayed? Does it apply race by race, or is it also reflected in multiple seasonal scoreboards?

Say we give pipsqueaks a level, a colour. That would be easy to visualise on all scoreboards without splitting them. We could add filtering—show me only purple pipsqueaks like me!

A track scoreboard would show the pipsqueak colours for that track. The seasonal scoreboard would show pipsqueak colours at the end of the season (or the current ones if the season is in progress).

It should be evident to a new pipsqueak which colour they are; we'll need something to support colour-blindness by the way. "Hello! As a beginner in Stunts, you are in the green group. You'll gain ranks by finishing higher up on the scoreboard, etc etc". (Oh my, are we adding achievements as well?)

Mmmh...

Sorry this was a bit of stream of consciousness, but it helps me. Let's keep those brains spinning.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 07:05:43 PM by dreadnaut »

Overdrijf

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2021, 07:57:38 AM »
Ooh, random thought here, and this might just be asking for people to use ghosts, but what about we differ the public days rules between ranks/brackets? Like for instance: if you're in the top group, your replays will ALWAYS be visible to people in the slowest group. You'd be kind of getting this natural progression. As a new player you get to see every trick, which helps despite how many you cannot imitate yet. Then you lose that info, so you form a team. You have a lot less replays now, and often not the leading ones, but you gain insight through joint analysis of the tracks. When you get the hang of that you're left wishing you had access to the top replays again so you start analyzing winning replays after the race is over to build up your book of tricks.

I feel like this could be a really dangerous idea somehow, but it could be fun?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 08:00:14 AM by Overdrijf »

Ryoma

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2021, 08:21:44 AM »
You forget people who have not enough time.

I don't want to spend my time to see replay but I prefer to search by myself.
Build more than 100 cars in the past but people prefers Skoda Felicia Kompressor.......

alanrotoi

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2021, 01:25:28 PM »
Ooh, random thought here, and this might just be asking for people to use ghosts, but what about we differ the public days rules between ranks/brackets? Like for instance: if you're in the top group, your replays will ALWAYS be visible to people in the slowest group. You'd be kind of getting this natural progression. As a new player you get to see every trick, which helps despite how many you cannot imitate yet. Then you lose that info, so you form a team. You have a lot less replays now, and often not the leading ones, but you gain insight through joint analysis of the tracks. When you get the hang of that you're left wishing you had access to the top replays again so you start analyzing winning replays after the race is over to build up your book of tricks.

I feel like this could be a really dangerous idea somehow, but it could be fun?

I think it would be very unfair but let's not forget the meaning of the idea. Knowledge should be shared inside the teams that's why we should make the joining teams a priority.

There should be more content focused on newcommers. I can help on this but I'll need somebody to translate because, as you can see, my english is not good and precise.

Daniel3D

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2021, 01:30:58 PM »
For me the replays are cool to watch but useless in competition. I can't do most of it and i'm happy if i can get through a lap without crashing.

I think that the difference between non-Pro and pro should be in skill level as well, not time alone.
For instance:
When driving a corner there is a sweet spot to go around it fast, If you can manage that consistently, you're a Pro.
Able to control powergear?, you're  a Pro.
1 in a 1000 shortcut jumps? Like the one in Lockdown, worry and Fear?, you're a Pro.

Make it a checkbox that I doesn't contain that to list in that sub category like with GAR.
Maybe not call it amateur or newbie but 2nd division or something.
Something that anyone can enter for because its just more relaxed driving.
(of the ones that can qualify as pro 'fair use' applies)

It's no complicated rule set, no line between pro's and none pro's just a bit easier to get in to.

Simplicity is sometimes better..

Anyway, this is my opinion. And I realize now that it's kind of what I posted before.
I don't know if this is the best idea. It is something I am missing in the competition.
It's either free, or strict. No middle ground.
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I’ve successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work.”
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Zapper

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2021, 06:17:02 PM »
Hello you all,

The newbie scoreboard (or amateur league) in my point of view, should be experience based, so a number of participations have to be the principal measure to classify each participant. In this "entrance level" the participant  could  also win bonus of experience by archieving a certain number of wins or number of presence in "top 3".

That's just my opinion, I guess it's not far from what it is now, and surelly it's not right or wrong.
But after all, I'm glad to participate in this competition so far.

Cheers.

dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2021, 07:13:23 PM »
Make it a checkbox that I doesn't contain that to list in that sub category like with GAR.

I like that: it's not a refined solution, but it's a start, and I can do it now. Actually, I did it before typing this :)

In behaviour is similar to "everyone start as an Amateur, until the choose to become a Pro"; what is missing is the "one-way" constraint (here you can go back), and the enforcement to keep Pro pipsqueaks out of the Amateur scoreboard.

But that can come later. Let's keep this going for the next three months, and see how people feel about it. We'll continue to think about improvements in parallel.

Note:
- this is per-Replay, and not per-Race; one could submit both an Amateur and a Pro replays
- there is nothing stopping a Pro pipsqueak to get into the Amateur scoreboard, and the border between the two groups is blurry; there will be complaints, we'll have to make do.

I'll need to make it very easy for admins to remove replay tags though :)  In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.

[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro. At least, not limited to.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 12:18:59 AM by dreadnaut »

Duplode

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2021, 09:43:40 PM »
In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.

I have just had a go at that; please do tweak anything you find necessary there.

[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro. At least, not limited to.

Sixth place feels like a decent reference point to have in mind. If we want something more granular (or perhaps more robust with respect to races with low activity), one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).

dreadnaut

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2021, 10:03:35 PM »
I have just had a go at that; please do tweak anything you find necessary there.

Perfect, thank you very much!
I have just uploaded some changes that will make it easier to remove extra tags, if the need arises ;)

one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).

That is an interesting way to trigger the move from amateur to pro; slightly more complex that others discussed earlier, but more flexible and possibly fair.

alanrotoi

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2021, 12:00:15 AM »
In the meanwhile, it would be very helpful if someone wrote a news post for the homepage, explaining what we are adding, how it works, caveat, and "we reserve the right to remove pipsqueaks from the Amateur scoreboard at our discretion", but in a friendly way.

I have just had a go at that; please do tweak anything you find necessary there.

[edit] let's say we'll consider anyone who has ever placed 6th or higher in a race a Pro. At least, not limited to.

Sixth place feels like a decent reference point to have in mind. If we want something more granular (or perhaps more robust with respect to races with low activity), one possibility would be a simple points-to-graduate system (e.g. 10 points are required to graduate from the amateur competition, with an overall win being worth 10 points, a podium 6, and a top six result 4).

I like the idea and I have questions:
Would be annual or every 4 months? (a monthly promotion/descent was a failure idea in 2003)
How to plan descents and how to keep interest in the pipsqueaks when it happens?

Duplode

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2021, 12:20:35 AM »
How to plan descents and how to keep interest in the pipsqueaks when it happens?

I think the idea is to have everyone in the main competition from the start, so there is no need for descents, and graduation only means one is removed from the amateur scoreboards.

Would be annual or every 4 months? (a monthly promotion/descent was a failure idea in 2003)

If there is no descent because the categories are non-exclusive, I feel there won't be a problem in having pipsqueaks graduating every month, as soon as the criteria are reached. Assuming there will be an amateur scoreboard, races up to and including the graduation one might be counted for it. (4 or 6-month batches might work too, but then what should be counted becomes a trickier question.)

alanrotoi

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2021, 03:31:35 AM »
(I'll try my best english :D)
I think the main goals should be:

- to bring more pipsqueaks
- to make them stay and race the most quantity of races possible per year. (9/12 races seems a good goal, 3 worst doesnt count for REAL)
- to give them all the tools available to rise their level (articles, videos, teams, replays, etc)


What we already have?
- Stunts Forum
- Our will to strengthen the community (if we compare the forum stats and replay sent in zakstunts from the last year there is a big rise in participation. There are more messages everywhere, a lot of new cars built, a lot of replays in zaks, new projects and codding, etc)
- Side tools (stressed, track editors, car editors, etc)
- Automated competition sites (it was a great advance believe me)

Daniel3D

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Re: Newbie scoreboard and progression
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2021, 07:23:48 AM »
I would make the transition from the amateur bord a choice if the driver is not overly dominating the board.
I could possibly if i have the time and will match the criteria stated before. But not consistently.

It is still a (less stressful) competition. If it has a nice dynamic between driver's then enforcement out of it to a board your not quite ready for may work against our idea.

EDIT: I love the name and attitude of the scoreboard in the new style. Makes me want to give it another go.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 11:34:53 AM by Daniel3D »
Edison once said,
“I have not failed 10,000 times,
I’ve successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work.”
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