Author Topic: Cars and rules for 2022  (Read 1069 times)

dreadnaut

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Cars and rules for 2022
« on: October 16, 2021, 12:27:53 AM »
News from tomorrow's ZakStunts
They say the future is just over the horizon. In Stunts however, there's a pesky fence that stops you from getting there. But you can use it to drive your car on water, that's science fiction!

While the game stays the same, the Competition is open to rule changes. This thread is here to collect and discuss suggestions, and also to decide which custom cars will be allowed for the coming season.

See also: Cars and rules for 2021
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 12:48:05 AM by dreadnaut »

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 12:41:32 AM »
Some thoughts before heading to sleep:

Cars are going to be tricky! Thanks to Ryoma, but not only, there is suddenly a bunch of new cars. Most of them are "untested" in a racing situation though, and we don't know if they have any peculiar and interesting traits. We'll need a short-list if we want to consider any for the next season. Note that I don't plan to increase the number of total cars, or the proportion of custom cars. Revised Melange in for sure!

Amateur league: we'll continue this experiment until the end of the 2021, but in early December we'll have to decide if we want to make it "official" and code it into the website. See specific thread.

Track ratings: track scores for 2021 will become visible at the end of the season, giving us the Track of Year; I don't know if there'll be time to revise the system, so it's likely to continue as it is for 2022. We can improve it for 2023 if needed.

GAR: my idea at the moment is to phase out GAR for 2022, and replace it with a more relaxed OWOOT tag, which allows replay handling. GAR could be back in 2023, or not, we'll see next year.

Teams: we discussed some changes earlier this year, but didn't get very far; feels like to much stuff on the plate now that we are planning the Amateur league, but I'd like to keep that discussion going.

Now, let us know what you think!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 12:51:38 AM by dreadnaut »

KyLiE

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2021, 04:18:19 AM »
I propose the Chevrolet Corvette CERV III!  Not only because I worked on it, but also because it was developed and extensively tested with competitions in mind.  I know that I'm biased though, so you'll probably want other people's opinions before considering it.  Apart from that, I'd like to see the McLaren Honda MP4/4, Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R and Speedgate XSD return.

In the next few months, I plan to thoroughly review and test each of Ryoma's cars to determine their suitability for use in competitions.  If you're interested, I can share my findings with you.  It won't be in time for the 2022 season, but might be of use for 2023.

As for the Amateur and GAR competitions, I've already voiced my opinion on these.  At the end of the day, these are "Side" competitions and any changes will have minimal impact on the main competition.

alanrotoi

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2021, 05:00:31 AM »
Cars: ok Melange is in (thank you!). I tryied Chevrolet Corvette CERV III and I like it. I would vote for slower cars for the other 3 slots. Lotus is a beatiful car and Trueno too. Skyline is a good option too and a car made by Ryoma (I didn't test them but we could ask him about his best car or choose from the list. The last car might be from Overdrijf or another builder. Maybe 1 car for builder just to get all builders active :D

Amateur League seems a good idea. It would be some rules just to avoid non-amateur replays. So we need a exact definition of "amateur pipsqueak", maybe from statistics (historic and recent).

Teams: there is another topic about it but I would like see school teams next year. I mean for example if dreadnaut and I found a new team there should be a rule to 1) prevent more pro pipsqueaks and 2) stimulate the recruitment of amateur pipsqueaks.

This year we have about 90 new cars (around 80 from Ryoma, I'll have 2 Police cars and one more custom car this year and I don't know the others). Maybe a small and unofficial scoreboard somewhere with for example another 10 custom cars. Maybe this idea is for a separated event site.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 05:02:10 AM by alanrotoi »

alanrotoi

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2021, 01:47:29 PM »
I remember the section time analysis was a big success between pipsqueaks. Is it easier to make it manually or is it possible to make it automatic?

Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2021, 02:35:07 PM »
I would like an opinion by Ryoma and/or one of his collaborators on the cars, specifically on his cars.

I will fully admit to not having given all of the new cars the time and respect they deserve, but like, a hundred actual cars!!?!! Where do I even start considering them? I feel like we should definitely want at least one of them in, but it would be nice to have something of a shortlist for which ones were the biggest projects mechanically speaking. Separating the "I made this because it looks cool"s from the "try this on for size, bring extra tires"s, basically. Maybe include the Bravo and the Fiat 500 in the shortlist, being the larger collaboration projects? (Unsure about the GTO because the original version exists.)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 10:40:13 PM by Overdrijf »

afullo

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2021, 07:35:59 PM »
Some thoughts before heading to sleep:

Cars are going to be tricky! Thanks to Ryoma, but not only, there is suddenly a bunch of new cars. Most of them are "untested" in a racing situation though, and we don't know if they have any peculiar and interesting traits. We'll need a short-list if we want to consider any for the next season. Note that I don't plan to increase the number of total cars, or the proportion of custom cars. Revised Melange in for sure!
I agree with asking, first of all, Ryoma which cars are better suitable for this competition.

Quote
Amateur league: we'll continue this experiment until the end of the 2021, but in early December we'll have to decide if we want to make it "official" and code it into the website. See specific thread.
As Alan said, we have to define rigorously what an "amateur" is. I have been played since February 2014, seriously the first year, less seriously during 2015-2017, and again seriously from 2018 onwards. Nonetheless, Ryoma is able to place himself ahead of me, probably with statistical significance, when he plays at his best. In light of this, since he defines himself an amateur, have I to be considered an amateur too, or not?

Quote
Track ratings: track scores for 2021 will become visible at the end of the season, giving us the Track of Year; I don't know if there'll be time to revise the system, so it's likely to continue as it is for 2022. We can improve it for 2023 if needed.
Unfortunately I generally forgot to rate tracks, so I will be probably able to say something not before the next year.

Quote
GAR: my idea at the moment is to phase out GAR for 2022, and replace it with a more relaxed OWOOT tag, which allows replay handling. GAR could be back in 2023, or not, we'll see next year.
I agree. A competition with the R4K rules could attain larger participation, since it brings some frustration to repeat a whole lap just because of an error while driving the last tiles, although GAR is a good selector for strong dr1vers.

Quote
Teams: we discussed some changes earlier this year, but didn't get very far; feels like to much stuff on the plate now that we are planning the Amateur league, but I'd like to keep that discussion going.
Of course, to create equilibrium between teams, it could be a good way to bring more interest to the team competition, both for dr1vers which are already part of a squad, and for those who aren't.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 07:38:02 PM by afullo »

Duplode

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2021, 11:50:13 PM »
Cars: We're in for a treat this season! Here are my nominations:
  • Cerv III, which looks like a brilliant car;
  • Melange;
  • Zapper's Caterham!
  • One of Ryoma's cars, preferably a mechanically distinctive one as Overdrijf points out;
  • A wildcard slot -- almost anything could work here; I lean towards either something from the Lotus/911 Turbo/Skyline bracket or, if we end up with too many slow cars, the McLaren MP4/4.

Amateur league: I feel a good system would be having a few milestones counting towards graduation through a scoring system, as I had suggested in the original Amateur League thread, though I'll find it quite reasonable if you prefer something simpler.

I have been played since February 2014, seriously the first year, less seriously during 2015-2017, and again seriously from 2018 onwards. Nonetheless, Ryoma is able to place himself ahead of me, probably with statistical significance, when he plays at his best. In light of this, since he defines himself an amateur, have I to be considered an amateur too, or not?

That's a good question: should Amateur League participation be mandatory for everyone who doesn't meet the graduation criteria? Right now I'm leaning towards "yes", though in that case we might want to think of a less loaded name than "Amateur".

GAR: Going by recent discussions, RH OWOOT instead of GAR in 2022 does look like an experiment worth doing. (I personally prefer GAR to RH OWOOT, but I suspect that's a minority opinion at this stage.) 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 12:01:22 AM by Duplode »

alanrotoi

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2021, 12:12:16 AM »
we might want to think of a less loaded name than "Amateur".

100% agree, I think everybody faster than Skid and racing in competitions is not amateur.


Daniel3D

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2021, 10:39:38 AM »
we might want to think of a less loaded name than "Amateur".

100% agree, I think everybody faster than Skid and racing in competitions is not amateur.
I agree as well.
Maybe a simple rule set. Not to heavy.

"FTR" competition. (No reference to skills)
Follow the road.
- Allows off road as long as it's within reason.
NoRH but CR (crash recovery) allowed.

I know that the rules are a bit vague.
Just an example of a idea.

Sort of a middle ground between freestyle and owoot.
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Overdrijf

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2021, 01:28:21 PM »
A wildcard slot -- almost anything could work here; I lean towards either something from the Lotus/911 Turbo/Skyline bracket or, if we end up with too many slow cars, the McLaren MP4/4.
The GT3 could be another candidate, if we're looking for a classic to balance out the new stuff.

Maybe a simple rule set. Not to heavy.

"FTR" competition. (No reference to skills)
Follow the road.
- Allows off road as long as it's within reason.
NoRH but CR (crash recovery) allowed.

I know that the rules are a bit vague.
Just an example of a idea.

Sort of a middle ground between freestyle and owoot.

That does feel a little bit... open to abuse? Something in that direction?

There are obviously two sides to it. One of the reasons we race RH is that crashing and having to start all over is so annoying and time consuming, but if I retry a corner 20 times because I keep spinning out, that's just crash recovery right? Or does the corner have to be on water for that to be allowed? And if my jump off a loop keeps missing the banked corner I'm trying to land on...

I personally might actually enjoy a NoRH scoreboard without any additional rules.

Although as I say that I start having visions of having multiple separate side scoreboards (like NoRH, OWOOT and GAR) and at that point it probably distracts from the main competition too much? I'm not sure a 15 car scoreboard survives having those people compete in four separate ways with little competition between them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 01:30:30 PM by Overdrijf »

Daniel3D

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2021, 07:53:03 PM »
That does feel a little bit... open to abuse? Something in that direction?
It does. But then the same can be said about gar and owoot.
But if one feels the need to cheat in this then it says something about that person as well.
EDIT its just a name change. the main theme should stay,.
Quote
For those who have joined recently, and anyone who prefers to race in a more relaxed way
/EDIT

For me. I don't have the time and skill to get even top 12 in the main competition.
I managed a GAR lap once. Owoot is a bit easier because of RH,..

I would just like to race a lap without worrying too much about rules and post it. And post it somewhere I don't dangle at the bottom because of a time and effort gap I can't close.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 10:57:37 PM by Daniel3D »
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dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2021, 11:55:15 PM »
So much wisdom in this thread, let me reply to a few bits first:

In the next few months, I plan to thoroughly review and test each of Ryoma's cars to determine their suitability for use in competitions.  If you're interested, I can share my findings with you.
@KyLiE That would be very useful, but not only for me. Maybe your findings could go on the wiki? If you ask around, there's bound to be people ready to help you with the task!

I remember the section time analysis was a big success between pipsqueaks. Is it easier to make it manually or is it possible to make it automatic?
@Alan Alas, I think that was all manual. I would love to see that automated, but for the moment there is no easy way :(

Unfortunately I generally forgot to rate tracks, so I will be probably able to say something not before the next year.
@afullo Ah, I failed then :(  Anything I could do to put rating more in-your-face, in your opinion?

we might want to think of a less loaded name than "Amateur".

@Duplode "Amateur" is not about skill or tenure, but about career choices. I know that "professional" Stunts pipsqueaks don't actually get paid, but being an Amateur is not about being slow, rather about playing for love of the game. We are all amateurs in that sense, but some are experts.

It does. But then the same can be said about gar and owoot.

@Daniel3D You can cheat in GAR, but not in OWOOT. There are precise rules that define a valid replay where the car stays on the road, while we have no way to validate the use of replay-handling.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 12:12:30 AM by dreadnaut »

dreadnaut

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2021, 12:48:59 AM »
Side scoreboard: I would suggest limiting ourselves to one. My idea at the moment is a loose OWOOT with two rules:
- follow the yellow line: stay mostly on the road, traverse stunts as intended
- no shortcuts: it might happen for all four wheels to leave the road (e.g., understeering) but it must not save you time compared to the on-the-asphalt line

Cars: I had forgotten about the Caterham! It feels great, but might need some more testing before the end of the year. Cerv + Melange + Caterham could work well, plus maybe two of Ryoma's car if we identify good candidates.

Amateur league: I like Duplode's idea of gaining "points" to leave the Amateur group. I'll consider it for a bit, and continue on the other thread.

alanrotoi

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Re: Cars and rules for 2022
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2021, 01:47:29 AM »
I think a community policy must be added in both currect competitions. There should be more ways and easier ways to jump from zaks to r4k and viceversa. More links, more banners or buttons, and/or specialy more combined news and periodic commentaries. Both competitions are too separated and we need more community cohesion. R4k is a great site and has the potential to be greater but only few people joined. We need an easier and more fluent access between the competitions. The forum is the only nexus and the wiki i have the feeling that only few people uses it. Jumping to the social media seems a must to grow the competition and the community.