Author Topic: Pole position bonus  (Read 705 times)

alanrotoi

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Pole position bonus
« on: November 07, 2021, 03:37:19 PM »
I just wrote in the shoutbox this mini analysis about the current LTB fight.

About LTB fight you may think I won because there wasn't a faster replay from Duplode but it really was a tie. Both won 1 point each and we avoided another point from the other. This last ~150 hours has no relevance because we can't sum another point and we can't carry them to the next race.

LTB is a very enjoyable fight. Sometimes it is a duel and sometimes it's a 3 or 4 pipsqueaks fight. I think we should extend this "side game" to more positions.
For example every position has a value the closer to the 1st place the better. It should encourage pipsqueaks to keep the best position possible and not only the 1st place.

About the bonus I don't know, maybe a separated count of LTB and a different distinction that sum more points for overall. Maybe if we keep out of this the top 2 or the podium it will be a mistake. Maybe not. Let's think it together.

I think about a way to foment pipsqueaks to be in the best position possible in the whole race and not only at the end.

Duplode

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2021, 06:01:20 PM »
This idea has potential.The last few USC seasons had a podium time bonus system; I don't remember what the exact rules were, but it made perfect sense back then. If we were to adopt something in that vein, though, I'd recommend revising the points system of ZakStunts as a whole. I'll illustrate why I think so.

Before the recent LTB rule change at least, I believe LTB was overpowered: you can gain +2 advantage through LTB in a race, but, given the linear scoring system, if you end it in second place the winner can only recover one point, and so one can build an unassailable advantage through LTB alone. The changes have lessened that problem somewhat, as they make it a bit harder to get LTB (for instance, under the previous rules our LTB score over Z243/4 would have been 4-2 rather than 2-1). Introducing bonuses for non-leading positions would likely affect the relative importance, though it is hard to tell in which direction, and thus we'd better consider the points system globally.

(On a tangential note, since we are reviewing various aspects of the rulebook before the next season, maybe we should consider changing the linear points system for something else...)

dreadnaut

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2021, 06:21:49 PM »
I like the idea of "podium time"! It is more complex to code, but not far once you have LTB in place. It feels like LTB/Podium time changes and scoring would need updating at the same time.

Scoring has followed this pattern over the years:
Code: [Select]
2001 = 12->1
...
2004 = 20, 16->6 step 2, 5->1, 0.09->0.01 step 0.01
2005 = 12->1, 0.18->0.01 step 0.01, 0.01, 0.01, 0.01
2006 = 15->1, 0.11->0.01 step 0.01
...
2008 = 12->1, 0.10->0.01 step 0.01
...

That sais, I would prefer to limit the amount of changes for 2022, for two reasons. First it takes time to define and implement any new systes; time is scarce, and the Amateur changes will use most of it. Second, I think multiple changes at the same time would be difficult to evalutate; changing one piece at the time feels more manageable.

But it could definitely arrive for 2023 :)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 06:27:38 PM by dreadnaut »

Daniel3D

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2021, 07:06:36 PM »
For those not competing for a podium position.
Is it a idea to give points for personal records (in end position, up to position 4).
Say 2 points for new record, 1 for equaling the previous.
It could spice up the competition in the lower field.
(Don't know, just opting something)
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alanrotoi

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2021, 11:51:09 PM »
I feel it should be extended to the top 10 or to the whole scoreboard. Sometimes there are battles that aren't rewarded with points (remember AbuRaf70 vs Superbrian) and they rarely visited the podium. If the system covers at least 10 positions we can see more relaxed battles but battles at least. A podium system sounds like an extended LTB and (at least) not my proposal. Anyway every idea that makes us to participate more is good.

I think in a system that every position battle is rewarded no matter what's your scoreboard position. For example this year month by month there is a silent and interesting battle between afullo and Heretic. Both are very close in the season overall. Some months afullo is ahead and some others Heretic. If we take this kind of battle into the race period of every track and not with the final result it may encourage the pipsqueaks to fight every week or every few days instead of a monthly battle.

I don't know if I said it correctly in the example but that's the idea :D

I followed almost all "battle points" every month. Now closing the season it became in "duel fights". Dup vs Alan Rotoi, KyLiE vs Overdrijf, dreadnaut vs Zapper (it was a quartet fight before!), Heretic vs afullo (but Ryoma getting close with less races), Cas vs Leo (and Frieshansen getting close too). I enjoyed watching it. There should be some kind of reward. Maybe without official points (maybe yes but easy to prevent exploiting from podium pipsqueaks)


The current LTB system is perfect so I think it should not be touched.

dreadnaut

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 08:38:02 PM »
If we take this kind of battle into the race period of every track and not with the final result it may encourage the pipsqueaks to fight every week or every few days instead of a monthly battle.

Ah, I had misunderstood! I like this idea, although it feels quite tricky to implement. I don't know if it would take the shape of an "official challenge" or something like that. Or maybe it triggers automatically if you overtake someone who overtook you, something like that.

Yes, you shouldn't be able to win anything useful for the scoreboard or season, but keeping track of duels might still be interesting and satisfying.

I'll think about it for a bit ::)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 08:49:24 PM by dreadnaut »

alanrotoi

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2021, 04:27:46 AM »
If we take this kind of battle into the race period of every track and not with the final result it may encourage the pipsqueaks to fight every week or every few days instead of a monthly battle.

Ah, I had misunderstood!

My bad. I'm a writer and journalist and I feel I express very well in Spanish but when I need to say something not so superficial in English is when starts my problems :D


I like this idea, although it feels quite tricky to implement. I don't know if it would take the shape of an "official challenge" or something like that. Or maybe it triggers automatically if you overtake someone who overtook you, something like that.

Yes, you shouldn't be able to win anything useful for the scoreboard or season, but keeping track of duels might still be interesting and satisfying.

I'll think about it for a bit ::)

Maybe the kind of aword that they gave in ISA-IRC "Man of the Race" or "battle of the month".

Also about side rewards in the site could be designing a guest track or a mini interview published in Articles section or in the news page about the battle and the championship. Maybe a reward of giving 5 extra % to distribute in the next month car bonus percentage. Small but interactive rewards to give participation to the community.

Overdrijf

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2021, 11:57:16 PM »
LTB is a very enjoyable fight. Sometimes it is a duel and sometimes it's a 3 or 4 pipsqueaks fight. I think we should extend this "side game" to more positions.
For example every position has a value the closer to the 1st place the better. It should encourage pipsqueaks to keep the best position possible and not only the 1st place.

That... could actually work. Maybe like some kind of separate scoring systems that hands out like 10 "pole points" for each 24 hours in first place, 8 for each 24 hours in second place etc or something someting, and at the end of the season the leading time bonuses are distributed in one big swoop, either by dividing your total pole points by some big number and rounding the result down (or up, or just the regular way) or by giving the person with the highest number of pole points 12 LTB points, the next person 11 or whatever etc.

The biggest downside of this concept is that like anything I kind of like it's overly complex, which makes it hard to see what it does for you, and that makes it easy not to care.

I do like the idea of more motivation to race before the silent days though. I could use that.

alanrotoi

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Re: Pole position bonus
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2021, 12:34:54 AM »
I like that!
Also maybe to not make the competition more complex it would be a Stunts community score that could include all the stunts competitions. Something like old worldranklist but in a different way pointing the effort in participation, relative position and final position in the races.

I think Tennis worldranking has this kind of score. Maybe a mix between this and ELO. Both R4k and zakstunts has automatic systems so it would be easy to colect this data.