The best drivers ever...

[CTG]

Useless arguement again, not the first time seen between Argammon and CTG. As I see Argammon has a better average performance from that few races while CTG completed more races with more or less constant good result (since 2004). It's impossible to say what could happen in ZakStunts 2007 between these two pipsqueaks if Argammon is there. But it's sure that winning times would be lower because a hard opponent makes people faster and more creative on the track.

I agree with Akoss and Argammon too: we need to separate noRH racing, IRC racing and different cars too when making such a list. But my own - very subjective one - contains only the RH factor because that's the only thing I see from other pipsqueaks directly. Let's see:

1, Bonzai Joe

Whatever you say he's really a phenomenon in Stunts, as for me the biggest. Big respect to him!

2, Ayrton

(Almost) undefeated. But not an icon.

3, Argammon

High average with few races. If he had 100 or 150 races with the same average he would be the no. 1.

4, Alain il Professore

RH artist, spending 25 hours/day with maxing out tricks. Only 4th on my list but he's always able to win. Favorite driver, too.

5, Alan Rotoi

Supertalent but he's not enough motivated always to make good races.

6, Gutix

Best student of Rotoi's driving school (Ayrton didn't race so much with Rotoi), but he stopped top racing after a single good season. Even in that season Akoss and CTG (Zak's, USC, IMSA...) could beat him sometimes in different competitions - Ayrton is much stronger.

7, Renato Biker

Best student of Alain's driving school, one level higher than current stars. Even if he wasn't that hard opponent in Unskilled.

GAP

8, Akoss Poo

The best hungarian driver ever, but the one staying on (almost) constant level during the years. His ZakStunts results are worse than his skills.

9, CTG

The best example for slow but effective evolution, starting from crappy 10th places to overall ZakStunts victory. I think he must be very similar to Alain (racing a lot) because I saw that his semi-drunk live racing skills are really awful.

10, Dottore

Always close to the top of USC and sometimes good in Zakstunts too. His strength is that he has no weak cars (almost the same good level with all of them), weakness: nowadays he's not so good in finding new tricks. But if he owns all the tricks, he makes excellent winning replays.

and let's not forget about:

11, Mark L. Rivers

Indy God, very good with most of the cars but having weak moments with some of them. Another good example for great evolution.

About my ranking: somewhere between 20th and 30th, next to Krys Toff and Usrin. I think it's not that bad to be on the same level with them.

[Krys TOFF]

Nice list.

About my ranking: somewhere between 20th and 30th, next to Krys Toff and Usrin. I think it's not that bad to be on the same level with them.

Thanks for the compliment.

[Argammon]

@ CTG:

I'll join Krys in saying nice list.

But more importantly I am astonished that you suddenly post "so much" here.

As for BJ, there's a nice connection to real life sports. There's always a darling of the masses and some not so popular competitiors on the same or even higher level. Still there is some "magic" involved around the folks hero. And yes, Stunt's hero is definatly BJ though I insist there are some better drivers. 

[BonzaiJoe]

I think in the light of the year 2008, we can say that Ayrton is the best Stunts pipsqueak ever. At least in RH racing - we still have yet to know his noRH skills. But all the other pipsqueaks on these lists could only dream of doing something like the perfect season.

[Mark L. Rivers]

I think in the light of the year 2008, we can say that Ayrton is the best Stunts pipsqueak ever. At least in RH racing - we still have yet to know his noRH skills. But all the other pipsqueaks on these lists could only dream of doing something like the perfect season.

I'm totally agree with you. I see only a driver who can compete with him in the future, having 1) rising skill, 2) strong motivation and 3) enough time to realize great performances for a whole year. His initials are a double "D". Moreover he has already demonstrate to go quite fast even in NOR race...

[CTG]

lets create a multidimensonal matrix, counting who has beaten who, with how many places  

I'll add this to the stats about 2008 - several tables are ready, commentary is still required. Akoss told me another good idea about sum times compared for each duels (from Ayrton vs Duplode to Lene vs JTK)... Not an easy one, needs some time but maybe it's worth of energy. Due to my work I have to delay publishing the stats, but don't worry: I'll make them available soon...

[BonzaiJoe]

But such statistics would greatly favourize those who prefer to stay out of a race rather than send a listfiller or a test lap.

[Krys TOFF]

But such statistics would greatly favourize those who prefer to stay out of a race rather than send a listfiller or a test lap.

Sure, Argy would be king of these stats, racing only when he can get a podium and not racing when he can't, and then always saying he is the best of all.
I got a mail from him a few days ago saying that he is "disappointed" about what I wrote in this topic and that "our relationship" has never been bad so he wonders why I wrote that. It seems he forgot his Orion period when he considered me as just a listfiller useless member of the team (even if it was my magic carpet trick that made possible his good result for Z21 for example).
Please CTG don't do these stats, it will simply increase again Argy's ego.

[CTG]

Please CTG don't do these stats, it will simply increase again Argy's ego.

I mean for season 2008... And the time difference method really sucks, I checked. But the head to head results are quite informative, let me mention only one from ZSC2008: Duplode - Mark 5-5...

[Duplode]

Reopening this discussion just to share a thought, which might well be common sense, but anyway...

While it is certainly a valid approach to resort to statistics, head-to-head records and such data to decide about rankings, I still think it is too difficult(*) to make a "best ever" list in any truly objective way - there are just too many variables to condense into a single number. Specially, there are factors which are almost entirely subjective but should be highly relevant for such an evaluation, like:

• There are pipsqueaks with enormous natural talent but that for whatever reason (lack of time, unsteady motivation, racing discipline issues) do not fully convert such potential into cold results. Chulk would be the obvious example of that.
• Flair. Consider Ayrton v. Gutix. In almost any objective comparison (except maybe number of titles in a single season... ) Ayrton would have the upper hand. However, I consider myself more a fan of Gutix due to the - possibly unmatched - levels of raw creativity displayed in his replays.
• Innovation. For instance, even if one might argue that Alan Rotoi and Alain were superseded by their South American followers (not that I agree with that!) there is no way the fact that the "old masters" defined the playing field of Stunts racing for years to come can be discounted.

You may argue that such things are too hard to analyse and do not translate well into a ranking, and I would have to agree. But why being so objective anyway?  Allowing subjectivity to play its role has the added benefit of making rankings more of a celebration of our favourite superstars and less of another cold-blooded battle.

(*) If you like maths and want to check a honest attempt at ranking pipsqueaks, check this: http://www.unifr.ch/makro/assets/files/p_stadelmann_formula1.pdf   

[alanrotoi]

My students! ^_^. No doubt they exceeded the teacher hahaha. That's my opinion. I think 4dsL generated many good "amateur" pipsqueaks. After a couple of races on "pro" Zak's under MeganiuM flag they went crazy.

[Chulk]

There are pipsqueaks with enormous natural talent but that for whatever reason (lack of time, unsteady motivation, racing discipline issues) do not fully convert such potential into cold results. Chulk would be the obvious example of that.

Wow, thanks! I don't recall reading this post, somehow I may have missed it.
By the way, I think you definition still applies

[CTG]

However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.

It would be more objective to classify pipsqueaks based on their different type of skills.

[Duplode]

However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.

But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)

[Chulk]

However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.

But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)

I promise I'll change that this season or the next one!!