Looking ahead 🔭
With a large enough telescope, I'm sure we could see ZakStunts 2025 from when we stand today. They are a bit small, but I can see tracks. Can't tell if they are twelve or more 🤔 What to you think?
While the game stays the same, the Competition is open to rule changes. This thread is here to collect and discuss suggestions, and also to decide which custom cars will be allowed for the coming season.
See also: Cars and rules for 2024 (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4171.0)
I feel the LTB system could be well worth looking into in this pre-season. Last year there were plenty of interesting ideas for reform (here is some of the discussion in the previous thread (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=92049)), but there was little time left in the cycle for them to mature and become actionable.
Regarding cars:
The original Stratos could be replaced by the Gr4 Stratos. I believe @Ryoma had expressed a wish that this version could be used in future, now it has been published. I can confirm it is even more fun to drive, faster and with a digital dashboard!
There have been many other great cars sent this year, such as Zapper's Mazda 787B, Ryoma's Ferrari 499P, though these may clash with the stock P962/JAG.
Alan Rotoi's Baronetti A-70 would be a worthy addition. It has established itself as a part of recent Stunts history, been tested in races and drives well!
I'll also put in my annual request for Ryoma's Peugeot Oxia. Great looks, great speed, great handling with fun grip levels. Crying out to be challenged in the ZakStunts arena.
Cars
We have several car packs now (imsa, dtm, muscle cars 1, rally, muscle cars 2, indy, offroad, 50's cars). Zakstunts adds 5 custom cars per year. What if we add 4 cars plus a car pack? The pack would share the same bonus modifier to assure a car pack battle!
If a car from the pack has a plus or a minus or one of them wins, the whole pack gets the same treatment.
Teams
What if every team has an academy? Let's say 2 academy slots. The pipsqueaks in the academy must be in the amateur league. They earn points in the amateur league and they are promoted from the academy when they reach 10 points as usual.
So you have the school porpose of the team, extra slots for newbies and a grown ex-newbie promoted ready to build a new team.
Idea:
General bonus for crowded races
Races from 15 to 20 pipsqueaks:
Points multiplier: 1.25
Races with 21 pipsqueaks or more:
Points multiplier: 1.5
Positive effect: races with a lot of pipsqueaks are harder. It's more difficult be the 12th when 22 are racing than be the 10th with 13.
Negative effect: fear of ghosts made just to made a race more pontuable.
I propose some of these:
cars.png
About Baronetti A-70, Chevrolet Camaro, Chevrolet Silverado Monster Truck all were tested in live race. If I have to choose only one of mine I would choose Camaro.
About the cars of Zapper I would like to see Lotus Esprit again, it's a masterpiece.
About Ryoma's I think Ferrari Testarossa or Lamborghini Diablo are great options.
Quote from: alanrotoi on September 24, 2024, 09:13:45 PMAbout Ryoma's I think Ferrari Testarossa or Lamborghini Diablo are great options.
The Testarossa is very nice. Its grip levels make cornering very fun and challenging.
Ryoma's F512M is like a newer, updated Testarossa with more power/acceleration and a clearer dashboard, but still with the same great handling. Maybe worth consideration?
https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3673.0
Of course, the Oxia still wins for me! ;)
Quote from: Spoonboy on September 16, 2024, 03:47:05 PMThe original Stratos could be replaced by the Gr4 Stratos. I believe @Ryoma had expressed a wish that this version could be used in future, now it has been published. I can confirm it is even more fun to drive, faster and with a digital dashboard!
To expand/correct myself on Ryoma's Stratos:
In comparison with the Original Stratos, the Gr4 adds acceleration (but not top speed), and the display could be considered semi-digital - an analogue rev counter with digital speedometer.
Now he has added the Gr5 to the garage!
This has the Gr4's acceleration, but a top speed of 183mph!
If the Stratos was to retain its position on the roster, these variants should be considered. I'd recommend they are tested to compare - with the Gr5's combination of grip/speed, the Gr4 may be considered easier to handle.
Quote from: Shoegazing Leo on September 23, 2024, 05:42:33 PMIdea:
General bonus for crowded races
Races from 15 to 20 pipsqueaks:
Points multiplier: 1.25
Races with 21 pipsqueaks or more:
Points multiplier: 1.5
Positive effect: races with a lot of pipsqueaks are harder. It's more difficult be the 12th when 22 are racing than be the 10th with 13.
Negative effect: fear of ghosts made just to made a race more pontuable.
This is an interesting idea! Though attendance has been reasonably steady as of late, the number of pipsqueaks sure makes a big difference in how a race plays out, specially around the middle of the scoreboard. Though it was implemented for a different reason, the scoring-from-the-bottom points system at CCC and NTT, which also addresses this issue, has worked fine.
The main downside I can think of for such a system is that it would be harder to make plans about a season scoreboard target, or make forecasts generally, as you'd not know in advance how many points would be in play. (Though I can see how, from a different point of view, the extra unpredictability might be seen as a nice thing.)
Quote from: Duplode on September 14, 2024, 03:58:10 PMI feel the LTB system could be well worth looking into in this pre-season. Last year there were plenty of interesting ideas for reform (here is some of the discussion in the previous thread (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=92049)), but there was little time left in the cycle for them to mature and become actionable.
So, LTB... I should begin by noting that I'm probably not the best person to make the case for LTB reform, as I kind of made my peace with the current system during this season (maybe the hangover from ZCT266 has cleared :D ), and wouldn't really mind going into 2025 without major changes. Anyway, it's certainly an important topic which is well worth discussing now. We could perhaps begin by looking at possible motivations for changing LTB. Looking back at past discussions, I would highlight two issues that I've seen mentioned with some frequency:
- Most pipsqueaks never or only rarely partake in LTB fights.
- Intense LTB fights can be exhausting and time-consuming.
Do these cover the perceived issues well? Are there other aspects worth highlighting?
Edit: As a conversation starter, I have just posted a sketch of a possible "position time bonus" system (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4373.0), which would expand LTB further down the scoreboard.
How close are we to fixing the cars for 2025?
Worth revisiting some of the above comments and suggestions.
Also, since then we had an entertaining night race with the Hummer/Land Rover/Lada Niva, which were all very capable.
We should also see if teams are going to suffer any changes... I intended to join DSP but I don't want to be (or cause others to be) a non-scoring member and I would reconsider joining a different team to make Team competition more entertaining as well
If I have to choose only one from my harvest I would choose Chevrolet Camaro. If we'll add another then Monster Truck, Plymouth Superbird or Baronetti A-70. All of them were tested in live races with a positive feedback.
They are all different with very unique features but Camaro is an iconic muscle car.
harvest.png
To summarise my previous comments:
Upgrade Stratos to Gr4/Gr5?
Testarossa (or newer F512M) would be great. Maybe to temporarily replace F40?
A-70 would be great.
4WD such as Hummer/Land Rover, though these might clash with LM002.
Having just had a quick retest of the muscle cars, I'd also second the idea of
@alanrotoi's Camaro!
And
OXIA :D
Here go my suggestions for the 2025 cars (or at least the first ones; here is an alternative second list (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=96156) for your appreciation). I have tried to pick a diverse set of cars, each playing a different role, though there are a few subtle overlaps as well.
I begin my list with Ryoma's
Peugeot Oxia, following
@Spoonboy . It is an exciting and distinctive car, which belongs to a tier of supercars that we haven't explored in depth.
Bringing back the
Caterham Super 7 would be nice, as I feel we saw relatively little of it in the one season it had so far.
For the race car role, I suggest another return, that of the
Mercedes DTM. I still want to see it winning a race :)
For the proper slow car role, I'll again look to Alan Rotoi's creations and nominate the
Monster Truck (alternative: swap the Thunderbird with its 50's pack stablemate, the Chevrolet Impala.)
To complete this quintet, a Testarossa would indeed make sense. For the sake of balancing the list, I'll pick the intermediate option, the
Ferrari 512TR (see also its test report (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=83162)).
Quote from: Duplode on January 03, 2025, 12:29:03 PMTo complete this quintet, a Testarossa would indeed make sense. For the sake of balancing the list, I'll pick the intermediate option, the Ferrari 512TR (see also its test report (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=83162)).
If the Testarossas are being considered, the F512M is only very slightly faster than the TR and has Ryoma's updated and clearer dashboard, which may be worthy of consideration.
Quote from: Spoonboy on January 03, 2025, 11:47:24 PMIf the Testarossas are being considered, the F512M is only very slightly faster than the TR and has Ryoma's updated and clearer dashboard, which may be worthy of consideration.
I had picked the 512TR because it was slightly slower, a notch closer to the DSI GTO/Vette as opposed to the Oxia. That said, the updated dashboard of the F512M is certainly compelling... this can be argued either way!
(By the way, for anyone who wants to try the cars: there are convenient download links for Alan's cars in the Wiki (https://wiki.stunts.hu/wiki/List_of_cars), and updated versions of the other cars I've mentioned can be obtained from Southern Cross (https://scr.stunts.hu/mods.html#custom-cars).)
The Megapack from
@Erik Barros should have most of these too, and is a useful resource for comparing cars!
I haven't checked all mentioned above are included, and the Oxia may be before Ryomas recent update. But most cars should be found on it.
https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4312.msg94578#msg94578
By the way...
Quote from: Spoonboy on December 23, 2024, 11:39:00 PMHow close are we to fixing the cars for 2025?
Everything remains possible! :) To underline that, I'll add an alternative list for your consideration:
- As before, start with the Peugeot Oxia.
- For the race car slot, keep the Mercedes DTM.
- For the low top speed cars, move away from the extremes. So, instead of the Caterham, bring back the Lotus Esprit, a ZakStunts classic.
- In a similar spirit, replace the Monster Truck with Alan's preferred choice of the Chevrolet Camaro, which IMO fits this list better than the earlier one.
- Since this list leans slightly faster, move a notch upward in the final slot as well by replacing the Testarossa(s) with the Lamborghini Diablo VT.
So, everyone: keep sharing your suggestions! There's any number of combinations that would work well, so it's good to look at plenty of alternatives.
Having further compared the Testarossas:
Original: the dails are quite obstructed by the wheel and the dash is generally the hardest to use of the three.
512TR: dash/dials are actually clearer than I thought and is very usable. The view has more sky, feels more open.
F512M: I find the dash is cleanest, and this is my favourite of the three, but I'd be happy with the 512TR!
But the suggestion of Diablo VT is great! This car has similar fun handling to Testarossa, maybe with more grip. If it where between the two, I'd probably prefer the Diablo.
I would generally agree with
@Duplode's list:
Peugeot OxiaIt's basically perfect.
Mercedes DTMBut to be regularly raced it would need better bonuses than it received last time around.
Lotus EspritHard to argue with, it is lovely to drive!
Camaro for muscle car option.
Ferrari 512TR/Diablo VTStill on the fence with these, either would be great. FWIW I prefer NFS dash for the VT.
The Stratos (maybe Gr4 upgrade) is still worth considering. Not sure which of the above categories it is competing against for a possible place? If with 4WD Diablo VT, Diablo would win it for me.
If even some of these are chosen, this season will have some amazing drives! :D
About Oxia I'm a bit concern. It's beatiful with an awesome dashboard but we never tested this car. Does the automatic transmission works fine? Does it have any bug? (Pg or anti-pg) Does it has a pg bug like speedgate? Etc...
I'm not sure to add a car without a deeper test. It could end in unwanted advantages.
About the others I love them.
Quote from: alanrotoi on January 05, 2025, 02:49:04 AMAbout Oxia I'm a bit concern. It's beatiful with an awesome dashboard but we never tested this car. Does the automatic transmission works fine? Does it have any bug? (Pg or anti-pg) Does it has a pg bug like speedgate? Etc...
I'm not sure to add a car without a deeper test. It could end in unwanted advantages.
I have done the basic tests, and consider the Oxia safe in that respect. Here is a test report (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=96171) for it.
Quote from: alanrotoi on January 05, 2025, 02:49:04 AMAbout Oxia I'm a bit concern. It's beatiful with an awesome dashboard but we never tested this car. Does the automatic transmission works fine? Does it have any bug? (Pg or anti-pg) Does it has a pg bug like speedgate? Etc...
I'm not sure to add a car without a deeper test. It could end in unwanted advantages.
About the others I love them.
I've driven the Oxia extensively and it has no PG / anti-PG behaviour that I have experienced. Auto works fine.
The occasional magic carpet is all I've found!
I already tested Oxia. It doesn't shows any evident bug or problem. It feels like Ryoma's Stratos with steroids. It must be the personal mark from him. I don't see any problem to add it to the car pack of this year. The performance is not what I would like (0-60 acceleration faster than Indy) but I can live with that. Maybe it should start with a low bonus if we don't want to have 3 or more tracks with the same car.
I also would like to recommend the Fiat Uno with ladder by
@Erik Barros https://wiki.stunts.hu/wiki/Fiat_Uno_with_ladder
Just posting my yearly reminder that fast and medium-fast cars are fun. Most of the original cars are slow cars, and 3 powergear cars is kind of enough, so I always like things that go vroom being added.
Could the solution be to have a little bit higher of a total number of cars per season? Because yes, most DSI cars are slow, but it'd feel like treason to not include all of them :P We currently have 16 cars per season, of which 11 are the original ones and 5 vary among the custom ones. How about 20 = 11 + 9 total? Just saying.
Quote from: Cas on January 07, 2025, 09:36:53 PMCould the solution be to have a little bit higher of a total number of cars per season? Because yes, most DSI cars are slow, but it'd feel like treason to not include all of them :P We currently have 16 cars per season, of which 11 are the original ones and 5 vary among the custom ones. How about 20 = 11 + 9 total? Just saying.
More cars is a great solution.
Just 5 spots for custom cars does feel quite restrictive, given how many we have to choose from, and how much effort goes into the making of them.
Yes, we have other series to use them in like R4K/CCC. But ZakStunts sees higher numbers of drivers, and would surely be the best showcase for these cars (after suitable testing, of course).
If we were to remove a couple of original cars for a year, which one would you pick?
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 08, 2025, 07:18:27 PMIf we were to remove a couple of original cars for a year, which one would you pick?
The Jaguar and the P962. ;)
Increasing the number of cars per season would have systemic effects that should be accounted for. Here are some of them, in decreasing order of how likely I think they are to become a problem:
- We already have more cars than tracks in a season. As things stand, custom cars have a fair chance of being featured in the season they are introduced (number of custom cars that won races in the past five seasons: 3, 3, 2, 4 and 4). An increase in the number of available cars could make it much harder for each individual one, cancelling out the intended effect of the change.
- More cars per season means more ambiguity and more time required for exploring the possibilities, which in a way would increase the difficulty of the competition.
- Additional cars would lead to more bonus points being redistributed after each race, pulling the bonuses further apart from each other, which in the long run leads to fewer multi-car races. That might not be a big problem in this case, though, as the effect of an extra two or four points being redistributed could well be quite modest.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 08, 2025, 07:18:27 PMIf we were to remove a couple of original cars for a year, which one would you pick?
Always on a rotating schedule, as none of the original cars deserves an extended ban:
- One of the four powergear cars, to ease the PG pressure on track designers, going through all of them in a four-year cycle;
- One among the seven other cars. For this pick, prioritise cars with low bonuses relative to their balanced values (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=95520), so that ideally the excluded car would be unlikely to feature in the season anyway, and go through all possibilities in a seven-year cycle. When it's time to bring back this non-PG car, it could make sense to do so with +12% on the coefficient it had at the time it was excluded.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 08, 2025, 07:18:27 PMIf we were to remove a couple of original cars for a year, which one would you pick?
I'm against removing original cars. We play the original game plus our tracks and custom cars.
What we could do is to add a couple of cars, that would be good this year or the next, no rush.
You know I love custom cars but more than 7 custom cars would be too much. Remember custom cars are know only for member of the community. If somebody comes from the outside it could be hard to learn about new and different cars and it could be an excuse to leave. Also having many cars would be hard not only for newcommers but for most of us at the time to choose the correct car for every race. 11 original cars + 7 = 18 cars looks like a good maximum number.
Again, no rush dreadnaut, the cars will stay here.
Quote from: alanrotoi on January 09, 2025, 03:53:28 AMRemember custom cars are know only for member of the community. If somebody comes from the outside it could be hard to learn about new and different cars and it could be an excuse to leave.
This is a good point, and is the most worrying aspect of adding more cars, of all mentioned so far.
@Duplode's points are also worth considering.
I'd also agree that removing original cars would go against what we are all here for - celebrating Stunts!
However, for me one of the upsides of including custom cars is that it provides a showcase for all the work the authors put in to them.
It could be argued that a series like R4K gives a good spotlight to any custom car being raced, as everyone is driving the same car. However, participation is higher in ZakStunts, so an included custom car has the potential to be tried by more drivers.
Increasing the number allowed by 1-2 (and varying the garage each season as we do), would hopefully provide a little extra exposure without disrupting the season mechanics too much.
I would also add that I would be happy to keep the number of custom cars the same, if we don't want to risk causing problems.
But in any case, we should keep the custom list well refreshed each season, and aim to include 'new' additions as well as established favourite custom cars.
(A slightly increased allowance for them would help with this, but I won't labour the point!).
With this in mind, we of course need to make sure new additions are well tested before allowing into the arena. Trying them out in other series such as R4K works well.
But I suggest we could think about a more organised test program. The aim would be to assess a new cars' performance, abilities and possible quirks, with an eye on how suitable it would be for each series.
I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this, and would be happy to be a part of such a program if we thought it would be useful. As you can guess, testing new cars in Stunts is one of my favourite activities! ;)
Thanks all for you thoughts and reasonings! It's tricky to balance ZakStunts as a conservative/old-school competition, while keeping things fresh.
I would be OK with rotating one or two original cars out for a year to make space for custom ones, while I think 18 cars is too many for 12 races, with many cars ending up unused or, somehow worse, piling up at the top of the bonus chart without receiving the love they deserve.
Let's stick to 11+5 then. Proposals earlier in this thread seem to include 2 custom cars from past seasons, and three new entries. We could also go for 1+4, but I'm happy to leave a wider range of cars to R4K and CCC, to differentiate the competitions ;D
Yeah... it's a wild idea, I know. And all the points Duplode made at the beginning are very true. To the question of which two original cars I'd remove... it's hard. I could say the Lambo and the Acura because they are the two that I find the hardest to race with, but they do have a lot of personality.
Now, this is just brainstorming: there are other crazy ideas that could be used instead to add more cars without having the same impact. Like... say a system of 11 original and 11 custom in which each custom car is tied to an original car. Then, when one of the two cars goes up or down, the other one goes with it too. So bonuses would be applied to the "car team" instead of the individual cars.
All that said, I'm completely fine with the current system. I'm just trying to bring ideas and maybe they inspire other completely different ones, I don't know :P
Quote from: Duplode on January 08, 2025, 11:36:07 PMAlways on a rotating schedule, as none of the original cars deserves an extended ban:
- One of the four powergear cars, to ease the PG pressure on track designers, going through all of them in a four-year cycle;
- One among the seven other cars. For this pick, prioritise cars with low bonuses relative to their balanced values (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=95520), so that ideally the excluded car would be unlikely to feature in the season anyway, and go through all possibilities in a seven-year cycle. When it's time to bring back this non-PG car, it could make sense to do so with +12% on the coefficient it had at the time it was excluded.
Interesting proposal. Leaving original cars out was not something I was going to suggest, but I'm also not against it. It could lead to a more balanced field of cars. And this distinction between PG cars and others does make sense.
I would maybe make an exception for the Indy, with it kind of being THE car, the icon of the game. On the other hand of course, it's also the biggest powergear bully and victory thief.
As for the idea of "take away a car that has a low bonus anyway", I'm arriving at the same point through a different route. I think it's good to at least take a car that had a victory in the last season, preferably a full race of people using it. Maybe even give it some extra bonus the next season so it will see use in that one as well.
Quote from: Overdrijf on January 11, 2025, 12:08:02 PMInteresting proposal. Leaving original cars out was not something I was going to suggest, but I'm also not against it. It could lead to a more balanced field of cars. And this distinction between PG cars and others does make sense.
An alternative to outright leaving out a pair of original cars each season would be giving them a -11% penalty, effectively pushing them back one year in the rotation. That way, while they would most likely be uncompetitive for the season, people would still be able to race them for fun and have it show on the scoreboard. The 22 subtracted points could be redistributed by adding +1% to the other sixteen cars (assuming two additional custom cars would be included) and spreading the remaining six points across newly introduced or reintroduced custom cars (whose initial percentages have a fudge factor anyway). The selection of the cars to be penalised could be done as in my earlier suggestion (one PG and one non-PG, going through all original cars on a strict rotation with periods of four years and seven years respectively, prioritising cars with weak bonuses whenever feasible).
Quote from: Duplode on January 11, 2025, 03:33:22 PMQuote from: Overdrijf on January 11, 2025, 12:08:02 PMInteresting proposal. Leaving original cars out was not something I was going to suggest, but I'm also not against it. It could lead to a more balanced field of cars. And this distinction between PG cars and others does make sense.
An alternative to outright leaving out a pair of original cars each season would be giving them a -11% penalty, effectively pushing them back one year in the rotation. That way, while they would most likely be uncompetitive for the season, people would still be able to race them for fun and have it show on the scoreboard. The 22 subtracted points could be redistributed by adding +1% to the other sixteen cars (assuming two additional custom cars would be included) and spreading the remaining six points across newly introduced or reintroduced custom cars (whose initial percentages have a fudge factor anyway). The selection of the cars to be penalised could be done as in my earlier suggestion (one PG and one non-PG, going through all original cars on a strict rotation with periods of four years and seven years respectively, prioritising cars with weak bonuses whenever feasible).
I wouldn't mind leaving the rules as they are with respect to the cars. Were we to follow your proposal, I would suggest giving the 11% penalty to cars that won 2 or more races in the previous season. This would hit the Jaguar and the Indy in the current situation.
These are the coefficients I'd suggest for my second list (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=96156):
(https://i.imgur.com/jQD9ekn.png)
The approach was the same from last year (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=92124): start from the bonuses after ZCT281, guess neutral to slightly favourable bonuses for the new and returning cars, then tweak the values to keep the total sum at 176. The spreadsheet is attached for trying it with different cars or adjustments.
Quote from: Argammon on January 11, 2025, 09:12:23 PMI wouldn't mind leaving the rules as they are with respect to the cars. Were we to follow your proposal, I would suggest giving the 11% penalty to cars that won 2 or more races in the previous season. This would hit the Jaguar and the Indy in the current situation.
I don't mind sticking with 11 + 5 for 2025 either; that was mostly brainstorming about things we might do in a future season. Targeting cars that win multiple races could lead to a vicious circle, in which split podiums and surprise wins bounce away the same car repeatedly. A rigid cycle seems less risky in this aspect, and the results shouldn't be too different, at least for the first several seasons, if cars with weak bonuses are the first to be targeted. (For instance, going by my criteria Indy and Jaguar would be the current picks as well.)
Quote from: Duplode on January 11, 2025, 03:33:22 PMAn alternative to outright leaving out a pair of original cars each season would be giving them a -11% penalty, effectively pushing them back one year in the rotation. That way, while they would most likely be uncompetitive for the season, people would still be able to race them for fun and have it show on the scoreboard. The 22 subtracted points could be redistributed by adding +1% to the other sixteen cars (assuming two additional custom cars would be included) and spreading the remaining six points across newly introduced or reintroduced custom cars (whose initial percentages have a fudge factor anyway). The selection of the cars to be penalised could be done as in my earlier suggestion (one PG and one non-PG, going through all original cars on a strict rotation with periods of four years and seven years respectively, prioritising cars with weak bonuses whenever feasible).
At that point though, why not just leave all the cars in and let luck sort out which get used? Just give the custom cars that might be gone after a year a high enough bonus to see use.
I think too many options each race could be quite draining, or the initial bonus would have to be high enough to decide the cars half of the season.
Anyway, I'm thinking of going with a standard 11 + 5, and try to get PTB-264. It might not be ready today, but the calculations will be retroactive 😅
Quote from: Duplode on January 11, 2025, 10:16:16 PMThese are the coefficients I'd suggest for my second list (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=96156):
(https://i.imgur.com/jQD9ekn.png)
The approach was the same from last year (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?msg=92124): start from the bonuses after ZCT281, guess neutral to slightly favourable bonuses for the new and returning cars, then tweak the values to keep the total sum at 176. The spreadsheet is attached for trying it with different cars or adjustments.
Quote from: Argammon on January 11, 2025, 09:12:23 PMI wouldn't mind leaving the rules as they are with respect to the cars. Were we to follow your proposal, I would suggest giving the 11% penalty to cars that won 2 or more races in the previous season. This would hit the Jaguar and the Indy in the current situation.
I don't mind sticking with 11 + 5 for 2025 either; that was mostly brainstorming about things we might do in a future season. Targeting cars that win multiple races could lead to a vicious circle, in which split podiums and surprise wins bounce away the same car repeatedly. A rigid cycle seems less risky in this aspect, and the results shouldn't be too different, at least for the first several seasons, if cars with weak bonuses are the first to be targeted. (For instance, going by my criteria Indy and Jaguar would be the current picks as well.)
I think the value for the Oxia is too high. Yes, it has a little less grip than the Mercedes but has faster acceleration and a higher top speed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Oxia beats the Mercedes on most tracks if they have equal bonuses. Given the other numbers, I would suggest +2 as a starting bonus for the Oxia. :)
I have another idea... not to be applied now, of course... but there is a way in which you can add more cars without causing any problems to the bonuses and without removing original cars.
You'd have the normal 11 + 5 and, in addition to that, you create a queue of up to 11 "replacement" cars. When a car hits the top 1 position in a race, in addition to the normal bonus impact, the car is removed from the the list for the rest of the season and the first car from the queue is pushed into with a predefined starting bonus. This way, every winner car would be removed for every race. You don't need to have a replacement car for each race. Cars available can be less than 16.
Quote from: Argammon on January 13, 2025, 06:00:14 PMI think the value for the Oxia is too high. Yes, it has a little less grip than the Mercedes but has faster acceleration and a higher top speed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Oxia beats the Mercedes on most tracks if they have equal bonuses. Given the other numbers, I would suggest +2 as a starting bonus for the Oxia. :)
The grip advantage of the Mercedes is very significant. I have done the "standard" test on Default with both cars, and the Oxia is slightly slower, with the difference in the order of one second. That being so, a difference of 1-2% in favour of the Oxia is reasonable as a starting value.
Quote from: Duplode on January 13, 2025, 07:24:28 PMQuote from: Argammon on January 13, 2025, 06:00:14 PMI think the value for the Oxia is too high. Yes, it has a little less grip than the Mercedes but has faster acceleration and a higher top speed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Oxia beats the Mercedes on most tracks if they have equal bonuses. Given the other numbers, I would suggest +2 as a starting bonus for the Oxia. :)
The grip advantage of the Mercedes is very significant. I have done the "standard" test on Default with both cars, and the Oxia is slightly slower, with the difference in the order of one second. That being so, a difference of 1-2% in favour of the Oxia is reasonable as a starting value.
I see your point, but I am not sure on two issues. First, how representative is "default" for a Zakstunts track? Second, could it be that low grip cars benefit more from replay handling than high grip cars?
In any case, if I am allowed to apply custom bonuses for my track, please give the Indy -8 and -2 to the Oxia, essentially bringing it down to the bonus of the Mercedes. In other words, I take the challenge! ;)
Edit: What is the exact grip value of the Oxia? Does it have much worse brakes? If so, that factor should also be taken into account.
Quote from: Argammon on January 13, 2025, 07:42:50 PMI see your point, but I am not sure on two issues. First, how representative is "default" for a Zakstunts track? Second, could it be that low grip cars benefit more from replay handling than high grip cars?
Default is a mid-speed track. There are faster tracks, in which top speed matters more, but also slower ones, in which things like low-speed maneuverability or grass driving matter more. I feel a Default test is sensible enough as a quick way of getting a rough estimate for the sake of setting initial values for new cars (something for which you don't need more than 2% precision anyway).
On RH benefiting low grip cars more, there's no hard evidence either way, but I'm skeptical. If anything, I'd guess that high grip cars benefit more because there's more margin for improvement in cornering speeds.
You of course can set the custom adjustments for your own track -- cc
@dreadnaut .
On the other questions: the Oxia has grip similar to the F40, while the handling of the Mercedes is much closer to the IMSA cars (though the driving feel is different because of the length difference). The Oxia has better brakes, roughly in tandem with the straight line performance difference.
Ooh, the track and the cars are up! :D I'll get the new car side pics ASAP.
Cars are in, thank you all for the discussion!
Can anyone generate side images for the Camaro, Diablo VT, and Oxia? 🙏
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 13, 2025, 10:27:56 PMCan anyone generate side images for the Camaro, Diablo VT, and Oxia? 🙏
Generated and uploaded :)
Thank you Duplode!
I think RH benefiting slower or faster cars depends on each pipsqueak. In my personal experience (and not counting the obvious most benefited PG cars), I find myself closer to RH level on high speed cars than slow cars when racing NoRH