1. Renato Biker
2. Gutix
3. Ayrton
4. Argammon
5. Alain
6. Mark L. Rivers
7. CTG
8. Alan Rotoi
9. Bonzai Joe
10. Duplode/Dottore
(drivers like Roy Wiegerinck, Mark Nailwood and CAP were good in their day, but wouldn't survive on today's level)
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff...
This list is just ridicoulus. With the same amount of playing and knowing all the trick possibilities published in different competitions, several old players would be as good as current "stars".
Subjective list from me:
1, Bonzai Joe
2, Alan Rotoi
3, Gutix
4, Argammon
5, Alain
6, Ayrton
7, Akoss Poo
8, Renato Biker
9, Roy Wiegerinck
10, CTG (maybe...)
Mark L. Rivers is not TOP10, although he's very close to it. If he makes such a good season again later (maybe versus some talented newbies, like Ayrton or Renato Biker was), he's able to be there. Dottore and Duplode are still absolutely far from overall TOP10, Duplode has more potential to reach it.
I have no real information about Nailwood, CAP or Inavoeg as I've never raced with them.
I think we are using different criteria. I want to find out who I suppose is currently the best driver. Even though Alain, for example, doesn't race anymore, I believe if he came back, he would be capable of being that good.
Saying Akoss Poo is better than Renato Biker is a really strange joke :) Renato Biker holds the record on 10/12 permanent tracks, and has an average Zakstunts race ranking of about 1.2
I could beat Renato when I really wanted to win... the same is not true for you, Argammon or Akoss.
You beat him on that one USC, after having seen his replay. Besides, that's your best replay ever (and the best Lancia replay ever). You can beat me when you want to, as well :)
But my list is like if all drivers were to race 3 races in a row, and all put an equal, big effort into it, that's how I think it would end up.
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on December 21, 2007, 03:19:03 PM
You beat him on that one USC, after having seen his replay. Besides, that's your best replay ever (and the best Lancia replay ever). You can beat me when you want to, as well :)
But my list is like if all drivers were to race 3 races in a row, and all put an equal, big effort into it, that's how I think it would end up.
I accept your point although sometimes I've beaten Renato in ZSC too. But I think Renato was the weakest ghost of Alain. ;D
I really miss Akoss from your list. With full power racing we are about equal (maybe I'm a very bit better now) but his live Stunts skills makes me think he's a lot better than me.
1 Bonzai Joe
2 Alan Rotoi
3 Argammon
4 Alain(=Ayrton, Renato Biker, Duplode, Mark L. Rivers, sometimes Mingva etc.)
5 Gutix
6 /me
7 CTG
8 pArAnO
9 Roy Wiegerinck
10 Zak
Close to top10: Chulk, Diesel Joe, Dark Chaser, XDude_NL, Vamologocomisso, CAP, Mark Nailwood, Fdzierva, Inavoeg, Usrin, Bismarck, Pershing II, Tsino, Dottore (not in order).
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
Close to top10: Chulk, Diesel Joe, Dark Chaser, XDude_NL, Vamologocomisso, CAP, Mark Nailwood, Fdzierva, Inavoeg, Usrin, Bismarck, Pershing II, Tsino, Dottore (not in order).
Please erase Tsino from this list. He was a ghost of Patricio.
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 03:37:05 PM
4 Alain(=Ayrton, Renato Biker, Duplode, Mark L. Rivers, sometimes Mingva etc.)
I could accept Myron as a ghost of Alain, because I always had a doubt about him. But none of the pipsqueaks listed.
Ayrton seems more than a ghost of Patricio than a ghost of Alain. Anyway, he speaks english too bad to really be a ghost of these pipsqueaks. :D
Renato, Duplode, Mark and Mingva are real people IMO.
Quote from: Krys TOFF on December 21, 2007, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
Close to top10: Chulk, Diesel Joe, Dark Chaser, XDude_NL, Vamologocomisso, CAP, Mark Nailwood, Fdzierva, Inavoeg, Usrin, Bismarck, Pershing II, Tsino, Dottore (not in order).
Please erase Tsino from this list. He was a ghost of Patricio.
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 03:37:05 PM
4 Alain(=Ayrton, Renato Biker, Duplode, Mark L. Rivers, sometimes Mingva etc.)
I could accept Myron as a ghost of Alain, because I always had a doubt about him. But none of the pipsqueaks listed.
Ayrton seems more than a ghost of Patricio than a ghost of Alain. Anyway, he speaks english too bad to really be a ghost of these pipsqueaks. :D
Renato, Duplode, Mark and Mingva are real people IMO.
About Tsino: why do you think that?
About Ayrton: yes, maybe, he was a Rotoi-puppet (LOL Rotoi just arrived to msn :D), but that makes no sense about the order of the real drivers.
Mingva: yes, I also think that he's real, but I'm not sure that he did all (part) of his replays.
Ghost: second/third/fourth /etc. character of an existing pipsqueak (Bolo) OR an existing human using other people's replay (Myron)
Quote from: CTG on December 21, 2007, 03:24:39 PM
I really miss Akoss from your list. With full power racing we are about equal (maybe I'm a very bit better now) but his live Stunts skills makes me think he's a lot better than me.
when it comes to live racing skills, I'm also there ;)
Quote from: zaqrack on December 21, 2007, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: CTG on December 21, 2007, 03:24:39 PM
I really miss Akoss from your list. With full power racing we are about equal (maybe I'm a very bit better now) but his live Stunts skills makes me think he's a lot better than me.
when it comes to live racing skills, I'm also there ;)
BTW yes, a live race ranking list would definitely include Zak in top5. Other great live pipsqueaks are BJ, Arg, Parano and (hopefully) /me.
After 4-5 beers it is sometimes too hard to beat Zak in live races. :)
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: Krys TOFF on December 21, 2007, 03:57:44 PM
Please erase Tsino from this list. He was a ghost of Patricio.
About Tsino: why do you think that?
1/ the way Tsino raced at 4DSL while never participating in Lukas' forum where advertisement for 4DSL was made,
2/ the fact that a talented newcomer winning his first 5 races in a row (4DSL 1st season, races 1 to 5, Gutix won the 6th) while never racing any Stunts competitions before is almost impossible,
3/ the fact that Alan sent only listfiller bad replays at his own comp but wanted to send his real replay so he had to use a ghost,
4/ the fact that Tsino's joined ISA/IRC with as good efficiency as only Alan ever had in the history of these competitions,
5/ Alan and I discussed in mails about best times of one 4DSL race (race 5 or 6 of season 1 if I remember it well) and I told him that a time X was IMO the best possible. He answered that he could do better, that he had a replay, that his time was Y (=X-x seconds, I don't remember the exact times). And the time annouced by Alan was the final time of Tsino a few days later (Tsino was a few centiseconds faster, but it could be a finish improvement of Alan's previous time annouced in mail).
6/ my instinct and own conviction.
Not top 10 drivers but deserve to be mentioned as very good r a c e r s:
Ben Snel
Bismarck
CAP
Chulk
Dark Chaser
Diesel Joe
Dottore
Duplode
Fdzierva
Inavoeg
Juank23
Krys Toff
Mark L. Rivers
Mark Nailwood
Pershing II
Roy Forever
Tsino
Usrin
Vamologocomisso
XDude_NL
Zak McKracken
Interesting theory Krys! Maybe it's true...
Renato Biker is not a ghost :) He's much better than Alain, and besides I've talked with him a lot and received his copy of Stunts and such. Ayrton: probably not a ghost either. Mingva: was probably helped on ZCT32. Myron: ghost.
Thank you all for overestimating me so much! :)
Maybe I should stop racing before I blow my cover and you discover that I'm not really very good except in WSM liveracing :)
Although I am not in a position to come up with such a list due to lack of experience, CTG's rank probably fits better to a "best ever" list - for instance, it's sure absolutely sure I'm not up to it as of now... BJ criteria is valid too, even if seemingly somewhat harder to apply (requiring more "what-if"s).
--------
Quote from: Akoss Poo on December 21, 2007, 03:37:05 PM
4 Alain(=Ayrton, Renato Biker, Duplode, Mark L. Rivers, sometimes Mingva etc.)
Thank you! It's just too flatering to see you think I'm as good as any of those five r?cers, I do not deserve it... or perhaps I could have misunderstood you?
(/Irony mode OFF)
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on December 21, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
1. Renato Biker
2. Gutix
3. Ayrton
4. Argammon
5. Alain
6. Mark L. Rivers
7. CTG
8. Alan Rotoi
9. Bonzai Joe
10. Duplode/Dottore
(drivers like Roy Wiegerinck, Mark Nailwood and CAP were good in their day, but wouldn't survive on today's level)
Well... I'm really surprise, BJ... I wouldn't have thought to be so high in your ideal rank... Sure I'm really honoured, because you are a deep knower of Stunts racing, and sure your thought has a high weight! :) But I also think that you overestimate me... I'm relatively young in the "circus", and I didn't race with many top drivers, at least not with my current skill. So it's quite difficult for me position myself in a ideal rank. And moreover, I have a skill with some cars and another skill with other ones, so... it's really difficult for me too find the right allocation where placing myself... Anyway, between the strongest drivers I meet, I mention sure you and, in alphabetical order, Ayrton, Argammon, CTG, Dottore, Gutix and Renato Biker. All drivers who I consider globally better than me. I can't say nothing about past drivers. Between current ones, I'm glad to race with honour beside Chulk, Duplode, Krys TOFF and Zak McKracken. But, thinking well... I have a favourite driver to mention.... He's AbuRaf70, and I have not to explain why... ;)
Anyway, it would be really fine seeing an high number of past and current drivers engaged in a event not long and not short, with an high number of cars... It could be very significative, indeed.... But maybe not all top drivers would want to measures themselves in a so clear race... ;)
I don't really think a ranking can be done, because we will never know how much time did/does a r.acer spent in his replays. Maybe they say they don't spend much, but waste the whole day with a single replay. We could think he would be a great driver if he spent more time, while actually he spents a lot...
BTW, I've met Ayrton when he came to La Plata once. And he doesn't look like Rotoi at all. And I don't really think Alain would travel that far just to cover his ghost...
My ranking (Only including those I've raced against on many tracks)
1. BJ
2. Ayrton
3. Renato Biker (Ayrton won 5-3 in 2006 season when they both raced, so that's why he's 3rd.)
4. Guix
5. Argammon
6. Alain
7. CTG
8. Mark. L Rivers
9. Akoss Poo
10. Dottore
List is a bit tricky: Argammon races only if he has chnce to win. So being absent means being unable to win in his his case. :D :P
Hey, what about me? In live races I also beat Akoss and once even BJ!
;D ;D ;D
you are the king of track designers - and the airport staff knows this as well :)
Yep, you beat me in live racing, and I won the live racing competitions, so you must be the best live pipsqueak ever !
Was that when you sang the Diesel blues for me? Or was it another time?
CTG's comment: Bullshit as usual. I am not able to predict my ability from just seeing a track. Besides, after I missed the first track I don't even look at the tracks "inbetween". But I guess everyone knows that.
Next Point: I do not think that Diesel Joe is close to the top 10. IMO he is a bad driver. No insult intended... There should be around 70 drivers who I rank above him. And don't make me do a list ;).
Even though I like BJ and don't want to insult him, I think many of you rank him to high because he has amazing live racing skills and was a big name in the past.
I could make a list but maybe shouldn't do so in order not to piss some people off. ;D
Or does someone really want to see it? :o
1, Diesel Joe is not that weak in skills but never took racing seriously. In some cases he showed his real good skills - that's why I wrote his name in the extended list (not close to top 10 but he's in the best 30-40).
2, BJ is not only an old champion and good in live racing but he can win any race when he really wants to.
3, Your list would say something like 1 Ayrton (or any SA champions from the past), 2 Argammon, 3 XY (1<--->2 is also possible), which is nonsense.
Anyway we can make points from the different top10 lists (10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1) and add them together. ;D
32 - Bonzai Joe
30 - Gutix
28 - Argammon
24 - Alain
22 - Ayrton
21 - Alan Rotoi
21 - Renato Biker
13 - CTG
11 - Akoss Poo
8 - Mark L. Rivers
4 - Roy Wiegerinck
3 - pArAnO
2 - Dottore
1 - Zak McKracken
1 - Duplode
I guess Chulk forgot about Alan Rotoi when he made his TOP10.
Quote from: Argammon on January 08, 2008, 10:49:11 AM
CTG's comment: Bullshit as usual. I am not able to predict my ability from just seeing a track. Besides, after I missed the first track I don't even look at the tracks "inbetween". But I guess everyone knows that.
Next Point: I do not think that Diesel Joe is close to the top 10. IMO he is a bad driver. No insult intended... There should be around 70 drivers who I rank above him. And don't make me do a list ;).
Even though I like BJ and don't want to insult him, I think many of you rank him to high because he has amazing live racing skills and was a big name in the past.
I could make a list but maybe shouldn't do so in order not to piss some people off. ;D
Or does someone really want to see it? :o
I'm curious, please post it (your list) there or in private message.
I also say you should post it, I want to laugh at your high ego. ;D
Quote from: CTG on January 08, 2008, 11:39:48 AM
32 - Bonzai Joe
30 - Gutix
28 - Argammon
24 - Alain
22 - Ayrton
21 - Alan Rotoi
21 - Renato Biker
13 - CTG
11 - Akoss Poo
8 - Mark L. Rivers
4 - Roy Wiegerinck
3 - pArAnO
2 - Dottore
1 - Zak McKracken
1 - Duplode
Well, this "overall" classification makes me think that Dottore is under-estimated while Akoss Poo is over-estimated. No offense, just my opinion. BJ 1st ? Well, among the top 5 but not 1st IMO.
My top list according to a high level of racing for each of these drivers when they are/were at their best, some of them sometimes just sent listfiller replays not worth their capabilities :
1/ Alan Rotoi (aka Tsino)
2/ Ayrton
3/ BJ
4/ Argy
5/ Gutix
6/ Alain
7/ Renato Biker
8/ CTG
9/ Mark L. Rivers
10/ Dottore
11/ Chulk
12/ Roy Wiegerinck
13/ Akoss Poo
14/ CAP
15/ Dark Chaser
16/ Duplode (but he is improving and may climb this scoreboard in the next months)
17/ Usrin
18/ Zak McKracken
19/ XDude_NL
20/ pArAnO
After that there are (no order, just a list) : Juank_23, AbuRaf70, Ben Snel, Mingva, Diesel Joe, Doelloos, me, SuperBrian, ...
Nice list. One thing: when Mark and Dottore meet in a race, usually Doc beats his italian opponent.
Quote from: CTG on January 08, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
Nice list. One thing: when Mark and Dottore meet in a race, usually Doc beats his italian opponent.
Yes, but when Doc races 1 track per month and focus high on it, Mark races 3 or 4 tracks and gets good results on all of them. The rare times when Doc raced more than 1 race per month he was less competitive. So, overall, I consider that if Mark and Doc both focus only on 1 precise track, Mark has more chances to beat Doc than the opposite.
I'm trying to make realistic head to head stats against the drivers who are in front of me on the table.
First I only tell my ZSC stats, without ignoring the listfillers, and without any comments (like Roy was alleged to use adv. RH while we didn't, CTG used auto trm. for long etc.).
Alan Rotoi 8-12
Ayrton 1-4
Bonzai Joe 16-22
Argammon 5-12
Gutix 7-10
Alain 16-20
Renato Biker 0-0
CTG 25-8
Mark L. Rivers 0-0
Dottore 3-1
Chulk 3-2
Roy Wiegerinck 2-6
I will ignore the battles when one of the opponents didn't play seriously (or me, happened 2 times only I guess), and I will add the results of other championships, too.
Or I'll do a cross-table soon... ;)
Krys Toff vs CTG 35-164 ;D
Your opinion is just hilarious, ctg. So, he didn't race seriously? Tough luck!
Either you count this argument for all pipsqueaks who lost races "not racing seriously" or for noone. You are just biased and unfair.
While most people here have somehow mentally developed over the years, you are still on the same teenage level you were 4 years ago. Just sad ;D.
So here's my list:
I didn't spend much time on it so it is subject to change:
1)Alanrotoi
2)Argammon
3)Renato
4)Ayrton
5)Gutix
1-5 close together. Could be any other order there. But I really like Alanrotoi's style so I put him first.
GAP
6)Alain
7)BJ
8)Akoss
9)Dottore
10)Mark
If this was an INDY only list, it would look a lot different. Especially BJ and Mark would be way higher in that case. Same case for live racing!
@BJ Please don't take this as an offense. To do such lists is hard and it's especially hard to compare different times. Maybe I am underestimating you...
Oh and here's more for CTG.
I think Akoss direct battles say a lot. He has raced against most of the top pipsqueaks quite a lot.....
Mark and Dottore ahead of me? LOL!!! ;D Check the head to head results of them versus CTG.
You are nowhere compared to BJ, Rotoi and Gutix as you are unable to complete a full season. I put you 4th and you are the only one thinking yourself to be TOP3 driver (nobody else from the last five listmakers). :P
So what? If that's their opinion who am I to forbid it?
I'm not going to argue against BJ's skills either. You can see it this way or that way. But "nowhere near" just shows you are -like always- trying to put oil into the fire! 8)
About Dottore and Mark: Your usual Bigoty. You ignore that I have a positive record against many of the other top drivers but on the other hand mention your positive record against them. Caught you here!
And if the other listmakers are of such an importance of you:
Everyone of them has rated me higher than you. Yes again, everyone of them .
That must hurt your ego alot, doesn't it?
Argammon, please... Be in the forum for a few days without being part of a flamewar. I know CTG started it, but you bite the bait so easily... And why? Since everyone knows you're a better driver than him, why not just smile if he claims otherwise?
As for your list, as you can see, it is rather close to mine, so I don't feel offended at all. I was rather enjoying being overestimated so much though :)
Nobody talked about you and me. I talked about X and Y versus me, independently from your egoist, high and mighty person. You are the only one trying to put yourself over everybody else, because you have some minority complex (or nano-sized penis, who knows) and that's the way of compensation for you. ;D
BJ: I never tried to compare Arg and myself (check my list if you don't believe). That's just a stupid theory of Szargammon.
Zakstunts only comparison : Argy 16-10 BJ. Well, maybe I should put Argy 3rd and BJ 4th in my list then... ::)
But, as Argy has some "bad" cars (everything is relative, a bad Argy is better than a good me) he almost never race with those and BJ would beat him with a race with these cars (IMSA cars & Melange mainly). On the other hand, BJ has only a bad GTO skill. So I think I will let my list the way it is finally. :)
Of course, all our top drivers lists are not perfect, a lot also depends of the track you race. Put a lot of elevated corners and BJ will drop down in classification. ;D Bring an almost-full powergear indy race and Mark will be in top 5.
And don't forget: BJ had several races with irrealistic listfiller time... That's why is BJ-CTG 28-22 (in reality it should be about 40-10 for him).
Excuse me, but the GTO is one of my best cars :) I had my last Zakstunts win (Z62) in the Ferrari GTO, and also one of my strongest replays on ZCT39 where I lost out to Alain by 0.30. I also won ACT11 in the Ferrari by several seconds...
My worst cars: LM-002, Audi, Melange...
After calming down: Argammon!!! I never said you are worse and never compared you to my performance. I admit that you can beat me in most cases. I just don't like people rating themselves higher than any other people think about him (overestimation). See my own list: 4th Argammon, 10th me. Isn't it enough? Numbers tell everything about my opinion. But the thing that you never showed a constant & long good performance in any seasons is the main reason of your "bad" ranking. An undisputed champion like Gutix, Rotoi or BJ are above this - I guess for all of us. Do you want people think that you are the best? Try to win ZSC 2008 with a large gap and every pipsqueak will know, that you were right.
About head to head matches: I didn't calculate yours as Akoss and me calculated only our head to head ratios versus certain opponents.
First of all. Everyone is entitled to have his own opinion or "list".
Thus I am not angry if I am "only" on 4th place on some of them. But in the same way you should accept my opinion as an opinion and not brandmark me as an arrogant prick.
Do you only want me to say oooooooh I am 9th so people think I am a humble and nice person?
Another side of the dice is the following. Of course winning a whole championship creates a far bigger mark in people's memories than just racing some strong races. Looking at it from that angle I can really be happy to be rated ~4th as I am right there with, yes!, champions!
Answering Krys: It's not true that I duck cars I am bad with. I just don't drive when I am either bored or annoyed with the track/car/competition/some people. I am not very good with the melange yet competed few times with it. Also had some Jaguar races I lost. My race selection is very close to randomness so I don't think that argument is to valid. I did not pick out my fav cars. Rather I started "randomly" at some point and did "some" races in most cases!
@BJ: IMO the person starting a flame has the main responsibility. And I am -sometimes- reading achieved topics which I missed while being away. And if there is, quite often, someone badmouthing me while I am inactive, then I am not to amused about it...
Finally, my take is that I was always underestimated and to compensate for that I was overestimating myself. It's a bit like strategic voting. If I think BJ was overestimated I tend to rank him a tad lower than he is to compensate for the bias which's already part of the old votes ;).
Maybe it would even be more interesting and less insultive to do this top lists for each single car...
But I still can't get why Dottore and Mark are higher than me.
Let's just say it's likely that none of the top 10 lists so far is perfect. And since that also applies to mine...
Dottore
- always beated him in ZakStunts
- he has no ZSC victories
- check USC overall scoreboards - manager is removed or made some irrealistic bad race (with a very strong online help replay, not included in the scoreboard), that's why he's a two times champion (don't want to hurt Doc, but that's the truth)
- no good results in any other competitions
Mark L. Rivers
- better than me: with Indy
- before 2007: I had significantly better results than him
- 2007: check ZSC season results
Both of them are great pipsqueaks but I don't think they showed more then I did in the past. I wish them a successful career and I also hope they will prove that they can be a lot better than me. But at the moment they aren't yet.
It seems you only wanted to make me nervous with putting them ahead. Well-done! ;D
First of all, the parts of Stunts driving skills.
It is most about the types of cars. I would select 3 different categories:
-the Indy
-IMSA and Melange
-slow cars (Audi and Lancia is a bit like the previous group - especially Lancia: Audi slows in corners like the real slow cars, but less skidable)
More parts of driving skills:
-ISA/IRC rules driving (counted in my eyes, because there was a big competition in it)
-no replay handling driving
It's a pity that there are much more slow cars in the game. Thus ZakStunts shows the masters of the slow cars more than it should. That is one of the main reasons of the fact that we should also include the other major competitions as well.
Let's sum up the major competitions.
ZakStunts - the most popular. All of the cars are included, so mostly a slow car competition.
ISA/IRC - probably the hardest ever, and maybe the strongest, too. That's where uncrowned Indy king Rotoi really prevailed, and none of the other top drivers could really battle with him. Only Indy is included.
Unskilled - a fair mixture of fast and slow cars (like ZakStunts 2003 B competition), but many top drivers are missing or not taking it seriously enough (like ZakStunts 2003 B competition). Later the level of this competetion rose a bit.
Kalpen - I think the first contesttrack in 2003 was the most quality race ever. Even some of the old big guns returned and we showed to them that our generation is the strongest. Everybody wanted to show his strength on a return of a legendary competition. This month I also drove the most on this track. The other races were of a poorer quality, but still decent. Only Indy is included.
The strength of the most permanent championship (ZakStunts) changed from year to year, like this: 2001>>2002>>2003<2004<2005<<2006<<<2007. Drivers who were relatively in background could play a more serious role in the championship in the latter years, because some top drivers disappeared/retired, the remaining ones didn't take the competition as seriously as earlier. When reigning king Roy found a girlfriend, BJ could appear from his shade and take everything that year. 2003 started with a great BJ-Rotoi battle, but both of us were lack of motivation so Alain could be crowned as champion in the end. That meant one more demotivated driver to 2004. Gutix, powered by motivation of newbies, capitalized on this and win the battle, without any serious effort from earlier top drivers. Ayrton and Renato Biker did the same later, and when all of the old top drivers had win a championship and/or retired and lost motivation, CTG could win final title (who were relatively in background during the golden years - means no real chance of winning the title - even with manual transmission).
Other factors which influenced the changing of forces: advanced RH in 2002. Alain and Mingva discovered this method (and allegedly Roy used it, too - he was over us by much until we didn't know advRH), later it was spread on the forum. Drivers who were in closest connection to the inventors started to use after them, and by ZCT20, even the anti-Orion Looping Warriors was aware of the 'trick'. This explains my small decline in autumn 2002 (that time I also had only 2 occasions to play Stunts at the workplace of my father).
CTG used automatic transmission for long, he started to use manual only in 2003. He also improved his skills during the first years, by the end of 2003, he meant a real threat to me. Fortunately when both of us were on top, I still felt that I am the better (and the head to head numbers also tell this story, 8-7 to me counting only the real matches of 2004-05, a bit bigger gap if we count the final battles of 2003 - I think we should).
Most of the drivers, especially Alan Rotoi, Bonzai Joe and Alain operated with listfillers, so head to head numbers are overstating to me in my favour (I only had 2 listfiller races: ZCT Plus 1 and ZCT47).
I have only a few battles against the newer drivers, and the head to head numbers are overstating against me this time, because I abandoned ZCT47 and most of the drivers beat me, and I had two really terrible races on ZCT 55-56 (I was maybe a bit out of practice after the Laura break, and I was only playing on my roommate's CPU).
I can only assess the skills of newest drivers related to the other drivers who remained active and raced seriously (like CTG).
There are some very suspicious drivers who are probably ghosts, products of the Hendaye Ghost Factory and/or the Buenos Aires Ghost Factory. (Drivers who are less critic and believe everything in order to perpetuate the peace believe that only Tsino was a ghost from the top drivers.)
Taking all of these into consideration, I have to tell the following (I am modifying the quick list I created the last time):
1 Alan Rotoi. King of the Indy car and IRC driving, also a very very strong IMSA pipsqueak. Strong as a slow car pipsqueak and also not a bad no RH pipsqueak. I guess when he raced seriously, I had only a very few victories against him (ZCT23 leaps into my mind for example).
Indy 10 IRC 10 IMSA 9.5 Slow 9 NoRH 9
2 Bonzai Joe. One of the best noRH pipsqueaks, and thus creates RH replays very fast (proven on WSM). He is the best slow car pipsqueak along with Argammon, and also very strong with Indy. For me, he appeared to be vulnerable in IRC racing (I beat him sometimes) and a bit with IMSA cars. Very hard to decide if he or Rotoi was the best driver ever. He should have lead over me head to head by a big margin, but sent a lot of listfillers.
Indy 10 IRC 8.5 IMSA 9 Slow 10 NoRH 10
(small gap)
3 Argammon. A bit like Bonzai Joe, excellent slow car and no RH racing, but weaker with the Indy. He never finished a full season, when he raced, he almost always sent his best (like me). The 5-12 head to head numbers are seem to be more or less realistic.
Indy 8 IRC dunno/can't remember IMSA 8 Slow 10 NoRH 10
(very small gap)
4 Gutix. His skills were like a bit like Rotoi's, but not as outstanding as his. Unlike the top3, on my day, I could beat him. Never seen among the top NoRH drivers. Anyway, he is still a legend, and one of the best drivers ever.
Indy 9 IRC n/a IMSA 9.5 Slow 9 NoRH ???
5 Alain 'il professore'. He has very much strange things done in stunts life, which is maybe a consequence of his stardom, but we have to admit the greatness of the Frenchman. He is a replay handling master, weak without replay handling. More or less equally strong with all cars in my opinion. Like Gutix, he was also beatable for me on my day.
Indy 9.5 IRC 8.5 IMSA 9 Slow 9.5 NoRH 5.5
(gap)
6 Akoss Poo. I always felt that I miss that small plus something to be a real champion like the top5... The top5 is rises above the others (whose list starts with me IMO) that they were the big trick inventors, and not us. And I always sent quite decent replays, but often didn't have the patience to max out my replay from 97% to 100%. Somebody (can't remember who) said that I am an Indy specialist. Maybe. Out of my 17 victories, I think more than half of it was with the Indy. I also had very good results with the IMSA, IRC and noRH, but I often had problems with slow cars, and that's why I felt that ZakStunts reflects a worse image of my skills than real (and that's why I don't agree at all with Krys who put some pipsqueaks in front of me in his list who are clearly weaker than me). I had better results in other competitions.
Indy 9 IRC 8.5 IMSA 8.5 Slow 7 NoRH 8.5
7 CTG. My main rival and my closest rival, too, we had many great battles, including some 0.05 battles, too. Better with the slow cars I think, but not with the others in my opinion. Never beat me at IRC, and on WSMs, I was the better noRH driver, too. Not counting his auto trm era, his computer problems, my abandoned races, so only when both of us were on top, I lead the head to head battle (8-7 only including 2004-05, a bit bigger gap including the end of 2003) only counting ZakStunts (slow car) competition.
Indy 8 IRC 8 IMSA 8.5 Slow 8 NoRH 7.5
8 pArAnO. One of my favourite opponents in IRC. The IRC results are not available now, but I guess he had a little bit better head to head results against me. He also sent very good noRH times. Nobody mentioned him among the top drivers, because you (all) focus on ZakStunts. The fact that he never even dared to try ZakStunts also compels me to push him back to 8th.
Indy - IRC 8.5 IMSA - Slow - NoRH 9.5
About the others (who are weaker drivers or ghosts or suspicious drivers as for being ghost):
Roy Wiegerick: he was the king until we didn't invent advanced RH driving, and he didn't leave because of woman affairs. The two things happened almost together, so we will never be able to say the truth for 100%. But ZCT 14-41 results comparison makes us think that we were better drivers than him. Despite this, he is a great champion and an unforgettable icon of ZakStunts. Dark Chaser's level I think. CAP and Nailwood, the best drivers from the early ages, is around his level.
Zak McKracken: Good with slow cars, but I would be able to count on one of my hands how many times he beat me. On WSMs, he proved that he is a much better noRH pipsqueak, moreover, when BJ and me were drunken, he appeared to be the king there. :) Around Mark L. Rivers' level I think.
Dottore: I lead him 3-1 in ZakStunts, I also bet him in USC many times. CTG said why he is better than me, I said why I am better than CTG, that means it is no question that although Dottore is a great driver and in/close to the top10, he is not better than me. Around Chulk's level I guess.
Dark Chaser: I guess he beat me only on ZCT 56, in other cases, I won clearly. Krys put me close to him, but I clearly can't understand why.
Chulk: He is a decent driver. Despite ZakStunts is a slow car competition, and I had a terrible 2005 autumn, I lead our short ZSC head to head battle 3-2, and taking his latter results against the other drivers into account, I hold on to my opinion that I am the better driver. He would be one behind pArAnO on my list I guess.
Ayrton: If he exists, I must put him ahead of me, he leads our comparison battle 4-1 (although I gave up ZCT47 and I had terrible races in 2005 autumn). But I think he was never on the level of the top3. I could not imagine Akoss Poo beating Rotoi, Argammon and Bonzai Joe by 3 seconds, which happened to Ayrton on ZCT53, in the year when he was champion.
Mark L. Rivers: We never raced together, but the results against other drivers and CTG's reasoning (why he is better than him) shows that he is outside top10. Behind Chulk on my list, I guess.
Renato Biker: I think he is an Alain ghost, and he is on his level, too, considerating his skills.
So that's all I wanted to say. Maybe it sounded a bit egoist, but this time I had to reason against my underestimation from Krys. If he had overestimated me, I would have written a modest-like post maybe, trying to prove that I am not a top driver.
I am waiting for opinions, especially Arg's and BJ's opinions, who are the oldest top drivers on this forum who are still here, and I also trust on their opinions in questions like this the most.
One more thing, off topic: This was ONE post, which is maybe of more characters than CTG's 100 other posts. So watch his magic forum stats very carefully.
Quote from: Akoss5 Alain 'il professore'. (...) NoRH 5.5
noRH skill of Alain is still over-estimated with this note IMO. Remember live races at the Stunts chat, even in 2003 when he was at his best : he was always the slowest, just better than Leo's level I even may say. I think his noRH skill is not better than 2 or 3 (10 beeing the max). But with lots of RH, he was able to reach the top.
Akoss Poo forgot something: maybe our matches show a Poo victory but follow them carefully in time and you will see that I improved over him in RH racing at the end (I was already better RH driver than him when he retired - but he was better between 1997-2004 and he's still a better noRH driver). ;D
I can't prove anything about Ayrton, Dottore, AbuRaf70 or whoever else some people think are ghosts, but Renato Biker is NOT a ghost. First of all, he is a better noRH driver than Alain, which the results from 2006 shows. Second of all, he is on a whole other level than Alain in noRH racing. I know this because, during one of my numerous MSN chats with him (in which he had pictures of himself, and didn't resemble Alain in the least, and you all know Alain has a very distinct style), he sent me his whole copy of Stunts, with all his tracks and high score tables. These were not Alain-tracks, and the times were much better than Alain could dream of, but not better than reasonably strong noRH pipsqueaks could dream of.
Whether they cooperated in illegal ways in the Orion team, I can of course not know for sure. However, there is nothing that indicates it, and so they are innocent until proven guilty.
Only one question: who said now that Renato is not existing? I also talked to him and I also know he's a real person.
About car's ranklist, here are the medal tables of each cars in ZakStunts. Sorry for the mess, I'll put them in a table. Some of these rankings are quite irrealistic as it also contains the stats of 2007 (GTO victory for me, LOL, I really hate that car and I still can't really handle it). But more or less it shows each pipsqueak's strong/weak cars. ;)
Lamborghini LM002
CTG 1 1 1
Argammon 1 1 0
Bonzai Joe 1 0 1
Fdzierva 1 0 0
Roy Wiegerinck 1 0 0
Ayrton 1 0 0
Renato Biker 1 0 0
Alain 0 2 0
Chulk 0 1 1
Ben Snel 0 1 0
Mark L. Rivers 0 1 0
Zak McKracken 0 0 2
Akoss Poo 0 0 1
Mingva 0 0 1
Lancia Delta Integrale
Ayrton 2 0 0
Roy Wiegerinck 2 0 0
Bonzai Joe 1 2 0
Renato Biker 1 0 1
Gutix 1 0 0
CTG 0 1 1
Alain 0 1 1
Akoss Poo 0 1 1
Alan Rotoi 0 1 1
Bismarck 0 1 0
Dottore 0 0 1
Ben Snel 0 0 1
Audi Quattro
Argammon 2 0 1
CTG 2 0 0
Roy Wiegerinck 1 1 0
Gutix 1 0 1
Bonzai Joe 1 0 0
Ayrton 0 1 1
Sylvain Chabert 0 1 0
Alain 0 1 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 0
Chulk 0 1 0
Dottore 0 1 0
Pershing II 0 0 1
Alan Rotoi 0 0 1
Renato Biker 0 0 1
Mark L. Rivers 0 0 1
Porsche Carrera
CTG 1 1 1
Gutix 1 1 0
Bonzai Joe 1 0 2
Ayrton 1 0 1
Mark L. Rivers 1 0 0
Alan Rotoi 1 0 0
Bismarck 1 0 0
Alain 0 2 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 1
Renato Biker 0 1 0
Argammon 0 1 0
Zak McKracken 0 0 1
Mingva 0 0 1
Acura NSX
CTG 2 1 1
Bonzai Joe 2 0 2
Argammon 1 1 0
Fdzierva 1 0 0
Alan Rotoi 1 0 0
Ayrton 0 2 0
Zak McKracken 0 1 0
Alain 0 1 0
Chulk 0 1 0
Akoss Poo 0 0 2
Ben Snel 0 0 1
Mark L. Rivers 0 0 1
Chevrolet Corvette
Gutix 2 0 0
Argammon 2 0 0
Chulk 1 0 0
Alain 1 0 0
CTG 0 1 2
Ayrton 0 1 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 0
Roy Wiegerinck 0 1 0
Bonzai Joe 0 0 1
Krys Toff 0 0 1
Bismarck 0 0 1
Lamborghini Countach
Bonzai Joe 2 1 1
Argammon 1 1 1
Roy Wiegerinck 1 0 0
Ayrton 1 0 0
Renato Biker 1 0 0
Zak McKracken 0 2 1
Alan Rotoi 0 2 0
Akoss Poo 0 0 3
Ben Snel 0 0 1
Ferrari GTO
Alain 2 0 1
Roy Wiegerinck 2 0 0
Bonzai Joe 1 3 0
CTG 1 0 1
Alan Rotoi 1 0 0
Argammon 0 2 0
Gutix 0 1 1
Zak McKracken 0 1 0
Krys Toff 0 0 1
Renato Biker 0 0 1
Akoss Poo 0 0 1
Pershing II 0 0 1
Ben Snel 0 0 1
Jaguar XJR IMSA
Roy Wiegerinck 2 0 0
CTG 2 0 0
Alan Rotoi 1 0 0
Gutix 1 0 0
Ayrton 1 0 0
Bonzai Joe 0 3 1
Ben Snel 0 2 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 1
Renato Biker 0 1 0
Mark L. Rivers 0 1 0
Alain 0 0 4
Duplode 0 0 1
Porsche 962 IMSA
Gutix 1 1 0
Ayrton 1 0 1
Alain 1 0 1
Alan Rotoi 1 0 1
Renato Biker 1 0 0
Roy Wiegerinck 1 0 0
Bonzai Joe 0 2 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 1
Zak McKracken 0 1 1
CTG 0 1 0
Paulo Ribeiro 0 0 1
Melange XGT-88
Alain 3 0 0
Ayrton 1 0 0
Akoss Poo 0 1 1
Gutix 0 1 0
Dark Chaser 0 1 0
CTG 0 1 0
XDude_NL 0 0 1
Vamologocomisso 0 0 1
Argammon 0 0 1
Porsche March Indy
Ayrton 2 1 1
Gutix 2 0 1
Alain 1 2 2
Bonzai Joe 1 2 1
Akoss Poo 1 2 0
Mingva 1 0 1
Roy Wiegerinck 1 0 0
Usrin 1 0 0
Renato Biker 1 0 0
Alan Rotoi 0 2 0
Mark L. Rivers 0 1 0
Duplode 0 1 0
XDude_NL 0 0 1
Argammon 0 0 1
CTG 0 0 1
Zak McKracken 0 0 1
Chulk 0 0 1
Skoda Felicia ;D
Mingva 1 0 0
Alan Rotoi 0 1 0
Alain 0 0 1
Another thing: talking about Nailwood, CAP, Inavoeg, etc. - why do we think they wouldn't be able to learn the new tricks and more expert driving methods if they stay with us? In their era they were the best. Who knows, maybe DeathMan (just an example) after racing between 2001 and 2007 - with the same activity as Bonzai Joe or Alain did - would be the best RH driver on Earth. It's something like we can't know that Lauda or Hakkinen is the better F1 driver...
I respect Nailwood's results and I think he would be a great driver with knowing all the new Stunts tricks. I didn't put him on my list because I never saw him racing but still he's one of the biggest Stunts pipsqueaks ever.
Another kind of stats: F1 pts average/race, ZakStunts pipsqueaks taking part in at least 5 races
1 Ayrton 8,14
2 Roy Wiegerinck 7,94
3 Renato Biker 7,46
4 Gutix 7,17
5 Argammon 6,41
6 Akoss Poo 5,29
7 Bonzai Joe 5,24
8 Alain 5,09
9 CTG 4,72
10 Ben Snel 4,05
11 Alan Rotoi 4,03
12 Bismarck 3,83
13 Mark L. Rivers 3,71
14 Chulk 3,63
15 Pershing II 2,86
16 Mingva 2,75
17 Zak McKracken 2,33
18 Dottore 1,88
19 Usrin 1,85
20 Vamologocomisso 1,80
21 Xdude_NL 1,80
22 Doelloos 1,71
23 KHR 1,71
24 Dark Chaser 1,59
25 Krys Toff 1,51
26 Mislav 1,12
27 Trx 1,00
28 Super Brian 0,93
29 CTG 0,90
30 AbuRaf70 0,82
31 Fernando Brito 0,60
32 Juank 23 0,60
33 JTK 0,33
34 Diesel Joe 0,28
35 Paleke 0,20
36 Sergio Baro 0,05
37 satanziege 0,03
Krys behind KHR? ;D
Yep... ;D
The most correct stats would be an average where we calculate that how many percent of the opponents were beaten by that certain pipsqueak. Imagine a 5th place if 7 or 31 pipsqueaks are participating...
lets create a multidimensonal matrix, counting who has beaten who, with how many places :)
@Akoss
You wanted my opinion. Here you are! 8)
Quote3 Argammon. A bit like Bonzai Joe, excellent slow car and no RH racing, but weaker with the Indy. He never finished a full season, when he raced, he almost always sent his best (like me). The 5-12 head to head numbers are seem to be more or less realistic.
Indy 8 IRC dunno/can't remember IMSA 8 Slow 10 NoRH 10
I did not almost always sent my best replays. Loosing motivation after the first few races more than often! For example 2004 only the first 2 races were really raced seriously. 2005 I sucked but I doubt all of them were raced seriously.Probably lost motivation after loosing the first race. 2006 I had 3 races of which one was my own track. 2003 looks mostly serious, exeption c26. But not really sure about the first races. I think I kinda gave you the 3rd lancia place because I did not improve in the end and you sneaked in front of me :P.
About the slow cars: IMO every original car has the same weight. With a small weight on the melange and no weight on any other car. And because there are "many" slow cars is the main reason I see myself close at/or at the top of the game. If there were 6 Imsa cars my opinion would be a lot different!
About your list. I agree with most parts of it with the exception of BJ. He had to many weak races to be such high. Lost several races against the other top drivers. I still accept your opinion though. But let me humbly voice my disagreement!
About the Indy: I think I improved with it. But did not have to many chances to prove it unless winning an USC track against the strong Mark.
We cannot know who might have been the best drivers if the circumstances were different, so let's just try to guess who are actually the best drivers.
BJ: then please rename the topic to "Best drivers at the moment" because now it says best drivers EVER.
I guess you misunderstood BJ.
He just said we have to take Nailwood's,Cap's,... skill they had at their prime and not speculate whether they would be a lot better nowadays or not. That is still a lot different to asking who is the best driver at the moment.
Quote from: zaqrack on January 09, 2008, 06:20:34 PM
Krys behind KHR? ;D
I sent some listfiller replays sometimes, going out of "F1" points. This decreases my average. Anyway, I don't pretend to be a top driver and this 25th place is close to my own opinion about myself in overall ranking (see my own list).
Quote from: Argammon on January 10, 2008, 08:59:54 AM
I guess you misunderstood BJ.
He just said we have to take Nailwood's,Cap's,... skill they had at their prime and not speculate whether they would be a lot better nowadays or not. That is still a lot different to asking who is the best driver at the moment.
Exactly...
Quote from: CTG on January 08, 2008, 11:39:48 AM
32 - Bonzai Joe
30 - Gutix
28 - Argammon
24 - Alain
22 - Ayrton
21 - Alan Rotoi
21 - Renato Biker
13 - CTG
11 - Akoss Poo
8 - Mark L. Rivers
4 - Roy Wiegerinck
3 - pArAnO
2 - Dottore
1 - Zak McKracken
1 - Duplode
I guess Chulk forgot about Alan Rotoi when he made his TOP10.
I didn't forget. I only raced few times against him...
Btw, I also have the impression that pipsqueaks who are themselves quite far from the top have a harder time to judge the differences between the top pipsqueaks. Imo they judge more about numbers or personal preference than really being able to judge a potential tiny difference.
If you are closer "to the action" it's easier to say who was really great and who was just "very good". Hope you understand what I mean. ;)
I agree with Argammon there. It's easier to judge a diference when you are "inside" that tiny diference" too. If you win all the time, last 3 places will seem the same to you and you won't be able to jugde them accurately.
Maybe we should open the TOP10 worst driver topic too... ;D
Leo Ramone has a great chance there. :D
Useless arguement again, not the first time seen between Argammon and CTG. As I see Argammon has a better average performance from that few races while CTG completed more races with more or less constant good result (since 2004). It's impossible to say what could happen in ZakStunts 2007 between these two pipsqueaks if Argammon is there. But it's sure that winning times would be lower because a hard opponent makes people faster and more creative on the track.
I agree with Akoss and Argammon too: we need to separate noRH racing, IRC racing and different cars too when making such a list. But my own - very subjective one - contains only the RH factor because that's the only thing I see from other pipsqueaks directly. Let's see:
1, Bonzai Joe
Whatever you say he's really a phenomenon in Stunts, as for me the biggest. Big respect to him!
2, Ayrton
(Almost) undefeated. But not an icon.
3, Argammon
High average with few races. If he had 100 or 150 races with the same average he would be the no. 1.
4, Alain il Professore
RH artist, spending 25 hours/day ;D with maxing out tricks. Only 4th on my list but he's always able to win. Favorite driver, too.
5, Alan Rotoi
Supertalent but he's not enough motivated always to make good races.
6, Gutix
Best student of Rotoi's driving school (Ayrton didn't race so much with Rotoi), but he stopped top racing after a single good season. Even in that season Akoss and CTG (Zak's, USC, IMSA...) could beat him sometimes in different competitions - Ayrton is much stronger.
7, Renato Biker
Best student of Alain's driving school, one level higher than current stars. Even if he wasn't that hard opponent in Unskilled.
GAP
8, Akoss Poo
The best hungarian driver ever, but the one staying on (almost) constant level during the years. His ZakStunts results are worse than his skills.
9, CTG
The best example for slow but effective evolution, starting from crappy 10th places to overall ZakStunts victory. I think he must be very similar to Alain (racing a lot) because I saw that his semi-drunk live racing skills are really awful. :P
10, Dottore
Always close to the top of USC and sometimes good in Zakstunts too. His strength is that he has no weak cars (almost the same good level with all of them), weakness: nowadays he's not so good in finding new tricks. But if he owns all the tricks, he makes excellent winning replays.
and let's not forget about:
11, Mark L. Rivers
Indy God, very good with most of the cars but having weak moments with some of them. Another good example for great evolution.
About my ranking: somewhere between 20th and 30th, next to Krys Toff and Usrin. I think it's not that bad to be on the same level with them. ;)
Nice list.
Quote from: CTGAbout my ranking: somewhere between 20th and 30th, next to Krys Toff and Usrin. I think it's not that bad to be on the same level with them. ;)
Thanks for the compliment. ;)
@ CTG:
I'll join Krys in saying nice list.
But more importantly I am astonished that you suddenly post "so much" here.
As for BJ, there's a nice connection to real life sports. There's always a darling of the masses and some not so popular competitiors on the same or even higher level. Still there is some "magic" involved around the folks hero. And yes, Stunt's hero is definatly BJ though I insist there are some better drivers. ;)
I think in the light of the year 2008, we can say that Ayrton is the best Stunts pipsqueak ever. At least in RH racing - we still have yet to know his noRH skills. But all the other pipsqueaks on these lists could only dream of doing something like the perfect season.
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on January 03, 2009, 07:31:56 PM
I think in the light of the year 2008, we can say that Ayrton is the best Stunts pipsqueak ever. At least in RH racing - we still have yet to know his noRH skills. But all the other pipsqueaks on these lists could only dream of doing something like the perfect season.
I'm totally agree with you. I see only a driver who can compete with him in the future, having 1) rising skill, 2) strong motivation and 3) enough time to realize great performances for a whole year. His initials are a double "D". Moreover he has already demonstrate to go quite fast even in NOR race...
Quote from: zaqrack on January 09, 2008, 07:19:48 PM
lets create a multidimensonal matrix, counting who has beaten who, with how many places :)
I'll add this to the stats about 2008 - several tables are ready, commentary is still required. Akoss told me another good idea about sum times compared for each duels (from Ayrton vs Duplode to Lene vs JTK)... Not an easy one, needs some time but maybe it's worth of energy. Due to my work I have to delay publishing the stats, but don't worry: I'll make them available soon... ;)
But such statistics would greatly favourize those who prefer to stay out of a race rather than send a listfiller or a test lap.
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on January 12, 2009, 10:46:47 PM
But such statistics would greatly favourize those who prefer to stay out of a race rather than send a listfiller or a test lap.
Sure, Argy would be king of these stats, racing only when he can get a podium and not racing when he can't, and then always saying he is the best of all.
I got a mail from him a few days ago saying that he is "disappointed" about what I wrote in this topic (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=2241.0) and that "our relationship" has never been bad so he wonders why I wrote that. It seems he forgot his Orion period when he considered me as just a listfiller useless member of the team (even if it was my magic carpet trick that made possible his good result for Z21 for example).
Please CTG don't do these stats, it will simply increase again Argy's ego.
Quote from: Krys TOFF on January 13, 2009, 09:34:50 AM
Please CTG don't do these stats, it will simply increase again Argy's ego.
I mean for season 2008... ;) And the time difference method really sucks, I checked. But the head to head results are quite informative, let me mention only one from ZSC2008: Duplode - Mark 5-5... :)
Reopening this discussion just to share a thought, which might well be common sense, but anyway...
While it is certainly a valid approach to resort to statistics, head-to-head records and such data to decide about rankings, I still think it is too difficult(*) to make a "best ever" list in any truly objective way - there are just too many variables to condense into a single number. Specially, there are factors which are almost entirely subjective but should be highly relevant for such an evaluation, like:
- There are pipsqueaks with enormous natural talent but that for whatever reason (lack of time, unsteady motivation, racing discipline issues) do not fully convert such potential into cold results. Chulk would be the obvious example of that.
- Flair. Consider Ayrton v. Gutix. In almost any objective comparison (except maybe number of titles in a single season... ;)) Ayrton would have the upper hand. However, I consider myself more a fan of Gutix due to the - possibly unmatched - levels of raw creativity displayed in his replays.
- Innovation. For instance, even if one might argue that Alan Rotoi and Alain were superseded by their South American followers (not that I agree with that!) there is no way the fact that the "old masters" defined the playing field of Stunts racing for years to come can be discounted.
You may argue that such things are too hard to analyse and do not translate well into a ranking, and I would have to agree. But why being so objective anyway? :) Allowing subjectivity to play its role has the added benefit of making rankings more of a celebration of our favourite superstars and less of another cold-blooded battle.
(*) If you like maths and want to check a honest attempt at ranking pipsqueaks, check this: http://www.unifr.ch/makro/assets/files/p_stadelmann_formula1.pdf (http://www.unifr.ch/makro/assets/files/p_stadelmann_formula1.pdf)
My students! ^_^. No doubt they exceeded the teacher hahaha. That's my opinion. I think 4dsL generated many good "amateur" pipsqueaks. After a couple of races on "pro" Zak's under MeganiuM flag they went crazy.
Quote from: Duplode on March 30, 2010, 06:44:36 PM
There are pipsqueaks with enormous natural talent but that for whatever reason (lack of time, unsteady motivation, racing discipline issues) do not fully convert such potential into cold results. Chulk would be the obvious example of that.
Wow, thanks! I don't recall reading this post, somehow I may have missed it.
By the way, I think you definition still applies
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
It would be more objective to classify pipsqueaks based on their different type of skills.
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)
Quote from: Duplode on February 01, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)
I promise I'll change that this season or the next one!!
Quote from: Chulk on February 01, 2013, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 01, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)
I promise I'll change that this season or the next one!!
That's the spirit, Nacho!
Quote from: Chulk on February 01, 2013, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 01, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)
I promise I'll change that this season or the next one!!
Are you going to take away my championships? :o Should I be scared?
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 02, 2013, 10:14:42 AM
Quote from: Chulk on February 01, 2013, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 01, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
However, BJ would be the best example of the first category.
But BJ won seasons of nearly all major contests... (quoting the chronology: AkossStunts, IMSA Cup, ISM, Kalpen, USC, USL, ZakStunts.)
I promise I'll change that this season or the next one!!
Are you going to take away my championships? :o Should I be scared?
Only if you used dopes (e.g. alcohol).
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 02, 2013, 10:14:42 AM
Are you going to take away my championships? :o Should I be scared?
Yeah, I realize now it was a confusing way to say it...
Quote from: CTG on February 02, 2013, 03:32:21 PM
Only if you used dopes (e.g. alcohol).
I thought alcohol was mandatory while playing stunts!
Quote from: Chulk on February 02, 2013, 03:56:29 PM
I thought alcohol was mandatory while playing stunts!
That's only the Le Stunts rule. :D
I confess. I used hex-editing, perfect replay simulators, penalty time removal scripts, cloaked car tuning and a secret magic carpet button. This is a very hard time for my kids :'( But I was clean when I finished 7th in 2011.
I confess. I've never used RH.
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 02, 2013, 06:52:57 PM
I confess. I used hex-editing, perfect replay simulators, penalty time removal scripts, cloaked car tuning and a secret magic carpet button.
At least you weren't a ghost...
Quote from: Chulk on February 02, 2013, 09:53:20 PM
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 02, 2013, 06:52:57 PM
I confess. I used hex-editing, perfect replay simulators, penalty time removal scripts, cloaked car tuning and a secret magic carpet button.
At least you weren't a ghost...
He was a ghost. But not in 2011. (L.A. sucks! ;D)
Haha... some of you guys take this waaaaaay too seriously. ... or maybe I just don't have enough "racing discipline" lol.
BTW, what's "RH"??
-Robert
Quote from: Komeuppance on February 05, 2013, 03:54:34 PM
Haha... some of you guys take this waaaaaay too seriously. ... or maybe I just don't have enough "racing discipline" lol.
BTW, what's "RH"??
-Robert
RH stands for Replay Handling. It's basically continuing a replay after a mistake was made, by simply rewinding and continuing driving from the point before the mistake was made.
Take a look at the wiki for further reference on anything you may need (or just for the sake of an interesting reading ;))
http://wiki.stunts.hu/index.php/RH
Quote from: CTG on February 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
It would be more objective to classify pipsqueaks based on their different type of skills.
That reminds me of the card game talk a while ago, though I think there would be a lot of stats to fit in a card! For starters:
Tricks
Shortcuts
Slow cars
Fast cars
Powergear
RH
NoRH
Live racing
OWOOT
Tactics
That alone would be enough for a decent RPG (for instance, think of Pokémon game mechanics, except that instead of a trainer and his monsters there would be a team and its pipsqueaks).
Quote from: Duplode on February 11, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
That alone would be enough for a decent RPG (for instance, think of Pokémon game mechanics, except that instead of a trainer and his monsters there would be a team and its pipsqueaks).
I don't like Pokemon neither I have played its card game... would you mind enlightening me?
Quote from: Chulk on February 12, 2013, 01:04:53 AM
Quote from: Duplode on February 11, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
That alone would be enough for a decent RPG (for instance, think of Pokémon game mechanics, except that instead of a trainer and his monsters there would be a team and its pipsqueaks).
I don't like Pokemon neither I have played its card game... would you mind enlightening me?
In a nutshell: Maximum five creatures for each side, who fight one-on-one. Once a creature is KO'd, the next one takes its place. The order is decided mid-battle IIRC, so one can do tactical changes. Whoever KOs all creatures of the opponent wins. Health and statuses are carried over from each of the sub-battles to the next. (In the end it is like the tag team mode of, say, King of Fighters; except with RPG combat mechanics.)
Quote from: Duplode on February 12, 2013, 01:47:23 AM
(In the end it is like the tag team mode of, say, King of Fighters; except with RPG combat mechanics.)
Never like KoF much either, but I see the point. Something like MKII 4 fighters battle, right?
Quote from: Chulk on February 12, 2013, 01:59:20 AM
Quote from: Duplode on February 12, 2013, 01:47:23 AM
(In the end it is like the tag team mode of, say, King of Fighters; except with RPG combat mechanics.)
Never like KoF much either, but I see the point. Something like MKII 4 fighters battle, right?
Yes, MK 2v2 works too ;)
(Now I wonder: could a proper competition work like this? Give 3 or 4 "health" points to each pipsqueak, hold duels in pairs as in USL/IMSA Cup, knock out losers, take one point from winners after a comfortable victory and two after a tight victory...)
Quote from: Duplode on February 12, 2013, 02:13:54 AM
(Now I wonder: could a proper competition work like this? Give 3 or 4 "health" points to each pipsqueak, hold duels in pairs as in USL/IMSA Cup, knock out losers, take one point from winners after a comfortable victory and two after a tight victory...)
I would give seconds instead of "HP". (Probably easier to meassure)
So who's the best alltime, Ayrton or Gutix? or me? :D
Quote from: alanrotoi on February 12, 2013, 05:18:20 AM
So who's the best alltime, Ayrton or Gutix? or me? :D
you*3? :D
One vote for Bonzai Joe.
Quote from: alanrotoi on February 12, 2013, 05:18:20 AM
So who's the best alltime, Ayrton or Gutix? or me? :D
If you replace "best" by "favourite MeganiuM opponent", I say Gutix (and Chulk in NoRH) :)
Quote from: Duplode on February 12, 2013, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on February 12, 2013, 05:18:20 AM
So who's the best alltime, Ayrton or Gutix? or me? :D
If you replace "best" by "favourite MeganiuM opponent", I say Gutix (and Chulk in NoRH) :)
If you replace "best" by "cutest", I say Lise! ;D
Quote from: CTG on February 12, 2013, 02:10:34 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 12, 2013, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: alanrotoi on February 12, 2013, 05:18:20 AM
So who's the best alltime, Ayrton or Gutix? or me? :D
If you replace "best" by "favourite MeganiuM opponent", I say Gutix (and Chulk in NoRH) :)
If you replace "best" by "cutest", I say Lise! ;D
If you replace "Best" by "Vest", I say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln2930rBisg
Who is the best Stunts driver without a ZSC victory? Dark Chaser? Juank23? Ben Snel? pArAnO (=pOtAtO)?
me? 8)
I think my record speaks for itself :)
Seasonal activity (only showing years with participation):
Zak McKracken 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 Average
Sent replays 40 43 33 13 26 32 15 12 18 3 23.5
Active days 30 30 25 12 25 27 13 9 16 3 19
Participation 100% 100% 100% 67% 100% 100% 75% 73% 92% 17% 83%
Final Position 8th 8th 6th 6th 6th 5th 8th 5th 7th 13th 7.2
Best Position 4th 6th 2nd 2nd 5th 3rd 6th 4th 5th 10th 11.9
Aver. Position 7.7 8.8 7.1 4.7 7.8 7.3 8 6.5 7 11 7.5
Also Tsino.
Yes Tsino is my ghost. I leave the community...
... ok I came back again :).
Quote from: alanrotoi on February 13, 2013, 09:27:44 PM
Yes Tsino is my ghost. I leave the community...
pee
... ok I came back again :).
Quote from: Chulk on February 05, 2013, 06:40:14 PM
RH stands for Replay Handling. It's basically continuing a replay after a mistake was made, by simply rewinding and continuing driving from the point before the mistake was made.
Take a look at the wiki for further reference on anything you may need (or just for the sake of an interesting reading ;))
http://wiki.stunts.hu/index.php/RH
Cool, thanks for the info!! Forgot about this feature.
-Robert
Quote from: CTG on February 13, 2013, 10:44:22 AM
Who is the best Stunts driver without a ZSC victory? Dark Chaser? Juank23? Ben Snel? pArAnO (=pOtAtO)?
I think parano, he helped me a lot when I had no time to prepare the way for a replay in IRC.
I think Zak too. Or Akoss if we add "fair" to the question.
Quote from: Chulk on February 20, 2013, 09:12:38 PM
I think Zak too. Or Akoss if we add "fair" to the question.
;D
parano FTW!
List of pipsqueaks I couldn't race against:
- Ayrton
- Gutix
- CAP (He left the same month I arrived :()
- Zak (at his real potential)
- Mark L. Rivers
- Fdzierva, Inavoeg... and all the Titans from the past.
- Chulk (same as ayrton and gutix, we're teammates)
Quote from: alanrotoi on October 10, 2013, 06:02:33 PM
- CAP (He left the same month I arrived :()
Suspicious.
Oh and pipsqueaks I like to race against more:
- BJ
- Alain
- Argammon
- XDude_NL
- Roy
- pArAnO
- Akoss Poo
- Ben Snel
- Mingva
Quote
Suspicious.
Yes, more suspicious if you think we both speak spanish :D
Argammon would come to this topic like a pin to a magnet.
Quote from: Chulk on February 20, 2013, 09:12:38 PM
I think Zak too. Or Akoss if we add "fair" to the question.
Not anymore. :D
Quote from: CTG on December 21, 2007, 10:03:20 AM
Subjective list from me:
1, Bonzai Joe
2, Alan Rotoi
3, Gutix
4, Argammon
5, Alain
6, Ayrton
7, Akoss Poo
8, Renato Biker
9, Roy Wiegerinck
10, CTG (maybe...)
New list:
1 Bonzai Joe
2 Ayrton('s owner)
3 Gutix('s owner)
4 Renato Biker('s owner)
5 Duplode
6 Argammon
7 CTG
8 Alain
9 Akoss Poo
10 Alan Rotoi
It's flattering, but I don't think it's credible to say that I've been a better driver than Ayrton. I know I beat him by 0.05 on Rijad, but I also fought against him on ZCT82 and ZCT87 and ZCT90 and lost.
Quote from: BonzaiJoe on February 13, 2015, 07:04:21 PM
It's flattering, but I don't think it's credible to say that I've been a better driver than Ayrton. I know I beat him by 0.05 on Rijad, but I also fought against him on ZCT82 and ZCT87 and ZCT90 and lost.
But I never saw his noRH skills. (The same for Argammon. I still think he's an internet tough guy, who played 0-24 every month.)
I never actually posted a list here. For what it's worth (i.e. not very much), here it goes:
1. Ayrton
2. Bonzai Joe
3. Renato Biker
4. Gutix
5. Alan Rotoi
6. Alain
7. Argammon
8. CTG
9. Duplode
10. Akoss Poo
11. Mark L. Rivers
12. Chulk
Many of the differences between adjacent positions are small, specially between 8th and 10th. I see a somewhat larger gap between Alan and Alain - the one between "Eternal Gods of Stunts racing" (to borrow a phrase from an old thread) and garden-variety top pipsqueaks.
Quote from: Duplode on February 13, 2015, 08:47:35 PM
8. CTG
9. Duplode
No way. I'm an RH workhorse, perfecting every corners without imagination. You are an artist, finding incredible tricks.
Quote from: CTG on February 13, 2015, 08:52:54 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 13, 2015, 08:47:35 PM
8. CTG
9. Duplode
No way. I'm an RH workhorse, perfecting every corners without imagination. You are an artist, finding incredible tricks.
On the other hand you are clearly better with IMSA cars (the ones which have more to do with natural skill) and a better live pipsqueak as well. I'd say it's a little like Renato v. Gutix, though in our case the difference is smaller.
It's strange to mention live skills. I always sucked at WSM live races (mainly because of alcohol intake, but still).
Quote from: CTG on February 13, 2015, 09:16:23 PM
It's strange to mention live skills. I always sucked at WSM live races (mainly because of alcohol intake, but still).
Well, Le Stunts head-to-head is 2-1 in your favour, and I'm not sure my victory in Hogweed counts for much given the circumstances...
WSM live races were all a long time ago...
Quote from: Duplode on February 13, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Well, Le Stunts head-to-head is 2-1 in your favour, and I'm not sure my victory in Hogweed counts for much given the circumstances...
Well, Le Stunts stats would probably place me much higher than I really belong, so I would take those out.
BTW, can we have live races again? I miss them a lot!
Quote from: Chulk on February 13, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 13, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Well, Le Stunts head-to-head is 2-1 in your favour, and I'm not sure my victory in Hogweed counts for much given the circumstances...
Well, Le Stunts stats would probably place me much higher than I really belong, so I would take those out.
BTW, can we have live races again? I miss them a lot!
Feel free to organize one. If there's a proper track, I guess Akoss Poo would also join.
Quote from: CTG on February 15, 2015, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: Chulk on February 13, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
Quote from: Duplode on February 13, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Well, Le Stunts head-to-head is 2-1 in your favour, and I'm not sure my victory in Hogweed counts for much given the circumstances...
Well, Le Stunts stats would probably place me much higher than I really belong, so I would take those out.
BTW, can we have live races again? I miss them a lot!
Feel free to organize one. If there's a proper track, I guess Akoss Poo would also join.
Next Sunday, around 15/16 GTM?
I will be in Sárospatak this weekend, I wonder if we come back by this time. Later is better, but I'd join, for sure. :-)
19378902740924879274809th best driver: Vector
Was it really necessary to share?
Quote from: CTG on March 05, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
Was it really necessary to share?
As much as all your spam is...
Quote from: Chulk on March 07, 2015, 10:12:40 PM
Quote from: CTG on March 05, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
Was it really necessary to share?
As much as all your spam is...
At least I'm the archaic shitter. There's no need for another one.