Time travel!
Turns out that if you drive 43 tiles in a straight line in powergear, the Indy can travel through time! So I've gone ahead to 2021, since 2020 sucked anyway. It's warmer here :-X
While the game stays the same, the Competition is open to rule changes. This thread is here to collect and discuss suggestions, and also to decide which custom cars will be allowed for the coming season.
See also: Cars and rules for 2020 (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=3542.0)
The big change for 2020 was the LTB calculations. That's done, althought there is still a display bug that I need to fix—you can see it now on the scoreboard too :| Any early opinions on its effects on the season?
To begin with some low-hanging fruit: if we are sticking with two DTM cars for the next season (which feels okay to me), it would make sense to bring back the BMW DTM in the place of the Audi DTM, so that they are all given two seasons to shine.
Quote from: dreadnaut on August 29, 2020, 12:24:58 AM
The big change for 2020 was the LTB calculations. That's done, althought there is still a display bug that I need to fix—you can see it now on the scoreboard too :| Any early opinions on its effects on the season?
At this point, I'm getting to like the new system, in no small part because it tones down somewhat the effect of LTB on the season scoreboard (but not exaggeratedly so). It would be nice to see how a full-on LTB battle would play out under it. (Z229 had some potential -- if only CTG tried to take the handful of hours needed for LTB+1 at the end of the race...)
Bring back that Melange!
DTM rotation and Melange noted. It's been a while since I've driven a lap in it. (Maybe on Race4Kicks?)
Yeah! I miss Melange. Also I would like to make a few changes in the shape and dashboard but seems I'm too dumb to use the tools :D I already have the bitmaps for the dashboard but can't use it.
Ranger? Lotus? Skyline? McLaren? Any new car?
I am really fond of Melange, but two IMSA and two DTM cars seem to be more than enough.
Quote from: CTG on November 15, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
I am really fond of Melange, but two IMSA and two DTM cars seem to be more than enough.
Mmmh, that's true. We could leave the Melange out for a year longer, and then we bring it in
instead of the DTM pair.
For reference, we can now see which cars were in use in which season with the car podium stats (http://zak.stunts.hu/index.php?page=car-podiums).
Quote from: CTG on November 15, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Any new car?
Knight Industries 2000? :D
How are the car bonus percentages currently calculated for each track?
Quote from: KyLiE on November 22, 2020, 05:34:30 PM
How are the car bonus percentages currently calculated for each track?
You start with the number from last month, every car that didn't end up in the top 3 gets +1. The total amount of -'s needed to balance out those +1's (-15 if one car took all of the podium, -13 when there were three different cars) is split between the top 3 in such a way that the first place winner gets 50% of the -'s, second place gets 30% and third place gets 20%, so if one car won the lot it's -15, if one car got first and another got both second and third they both get -7. Then on top of that the track designer can add up to another +10% and -10%, freely distributable as long as there are the same number of +'s ad there are -'s, and no half percents.
We actually had a bit of a discussion about that a while ago. Since we changed from +3% for every month not won to just +1% the +/-10% from the track designer have the potential to wreck a car's chances for an entire season. So we were thinking of making them temporary. That is to say, the track designer still gives the bonuses, but at the end of the month they revert rather than carrying over. So in month A, which the Jaguar won, the Indy sits at -25% while the Carrera has 23%. The track designer gives the Indy the full bonus making it -14% in month B while the Carrera gets the full penalty for a total of 14%. Then the Indy wins the race. In the current system that would give the Indy -29% in month C and the Carrera 15% (the track designer for month C ignores these two cars altogether), while if we make the bonuses temporary the Indy goes all the way back to -39 while the Carrera gets 25%. So their bonuses are exactly as if no extra points were given or taken during month B altogether.
I've had some time to think about it, I figure this is the way to go. Especially since track designers tend to give their bonuses to cars that look like they could become relevant. This looks like a good track for an IMSA car but the Jaguar is all the way down at -15? Better give the bonus to the P962. The penalty meanwhile might be distributed among cars that are not going to be relevant this month anyway. So the system overall mildly favors whichever cars were already sitting in the competitive range.
We could even think about making the system less complex if it's temporary anyway, like maybe you don't have to give the same number of +'s and -'s, as long as neither is bigger than +/-10. Or there's a big, a medium and a small boost of +6, +4 and +2% and we leave the negatives out altogether, or...
I'm not particularly sure of the details yet, but I'm in favor of temporary track designer bonuses. In exceptional cases, like if we find out a new car was brought in at a way too low coefficient, we can have a special administrative bonus bump it up, rather than relying on track designers working it into their bonuses.
Overdrijf, thanks for the detailed explanation! When I first signed up for ZakStunts, I thought the car bonus percentages were simply calculated for each track to make every car equally competitive, regardless of their performance differences. After participating in a few races, I realised that this was not the case and that past results had an effect on the bonuses. I think having the bonuses given by the track designers revert at the end of every month is a good idea. Each track is different after all. Whatever is decided, I think the simpler it is, the better.
In regards to which cars are used for the season, I would like to see the Superkart swapped for the McLaren Honda MP4/4 and the Toyota Sprinter Trueno swapped for either the Lotus Esprit Turbo SE or the Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R. I am also in favour of swapping the Audi V8 Quattro DTM for the BMW M3 E30 DTM. I would like to see the Melange XGT-88 back as well but if it will be back for the 2022 season in place of the DTM cars, I'm happy with that.
What are DTM cars? Sorry I'm old :D
Quote from: alanrotoi on December 19, 2020, 12:29:25 AM
What are DTM cars? Sorry I'm old :D
The cars included in the DTM pack (http://wiki.stunts.hu/index.php?title=DTM_pack):
Audi V8 Quattro DTM
BMW M3 E30 DTM
Mercedes-Benz 190 E DTM
Quote from: alanrotoi on December 19, 2020, 12:29:25 AM
What are DTM cars? Sorry I'm old :D
The period-appropriate trio of Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Tourenwagen_Masters) cars created by Overdrijf: BMW M3 E30 DTM (which I used when racing you in Z219), Audi V8 Quattro DTM (which I used when racing you in Z224) and Mercedes Benz 190 E DTM (which Cork used when racing Seeker in Z225). Here is a download link (http://scr.stunts.hu/files/mods/DTM-1.1.zip), just in case. They are fun cars; I recommend giving them a go :)
I'm a great fan of both the DTM pack and the Melange and I also like the McLaren very much. The more of them we have in the next season, the happier I'm going to feel :)
I haven't used the McLaren F1 car too much, but I seem to remember an acceleration profile similar to my cars: relatively low top speed but easy to get there. (Edit: Okay, the top speed is actually not too shabby, it's just really easy to get there.) So I agree that it would be a good substitute for the Superkart. I don't remember too much about the handling, which means I'll probably suck at using it. :P But that's okay. ;D
Quote from: CTG on November 15, 2020, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: dreadnaut on November 15, 2020, 07:38:19 PM
Quote from: CTG on November 15, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Any new car?
Knitght Industries 2000? :D
Ouch... ;D
Since KITT has arrived in the carpark outside.
I'd love to add it to the pack.
It's challenging to drive (my opinion) and on the right track could be interesting.
Quote from: Overdrijf on December 19, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
I haven't used the McLaren F1 car too much, ..... So I agree that it would be a good substitute for the Superkart.
I personally love the McLaren.
Quote from: Shoegazing Leo on September 19, 2020, 11:03:46 PM
Bring back that Melange!
Love the melange as well...
I noticed that the original cars are always part of the contest.
To aid in diversity I wouldn't mind if they are roulated as well.
I mean, if the 911 is there the Carrera could go.
Same with the Indy vs the McLaren.
Or maybe a selection per track? 10 or 15 car's creators choice on top of the car bonus but with all contest approved car's available..
Beside the alternative of an original car with a similar custom-made car, sometimes, there are two cars that are similar, both custom or both originals, like the Jaguar and the P962, or the cars of the DTM pack. It makes sense to consider these things, but on the other hand, sometimes the car we'd like to use is too deep in the negatives and we have its twin rather well positioned. I don't know.
I think it is important to always make the eleven original cars available, not just as a matter of tradition but also of accessibility. If ZakStunts is an all-cars competition, it should be possible for a newbie who doesn't know anything about custom cars to be able to race with any car they choose from their mod-less Stunts installation.
Quote from: Duplode on January 05, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
I think it is important to always make the eleven original cars available, not just as a matter of tradition but also of accessibility.
Good point.
But with more than 15 custom cars now available it feels as a limitation that only 5 are selected.
Maybe we can expand that to 9?
That way we have a selection of 20 car's instead of 16.
Or extended to 8 with a track bonus car (selected by track creator) so total is 20 as well..
Uhm... what Duplode says is making me think I should always include an original alternative in R4K when the race is based on a custom-made car. I'll implement that.
About adding more custom cars to ZakStunts... it is true that there are so many to choose from now that most are left out every year, but I don't know how the car handicap system would be affected by adding more cars. I suppose it would just tend to make races even more diverse, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking I could make some form of "simulation" to test that, but how is not very clear.
If I'm not mistaken the car bonus started with just the original 11 cars, has been expended 3 time's.
First to 12, then to 14 and in 2011 to 16.
But I don't know in what ways the system has changed and how that is affected.
Yes, it has seen these changes. My thinking is that, as this system counts the cars that are in the first places only, then, the more cars there are (especially, the more fast-cars there are), the more cars will be unused at any race meaning that a greater number of potentially competitive cars will raise in bonus percentage on each race. As a result, at a point, there will be more cars that could work well on a race than can fit in the podium and therefore, at least one of them will raise again in spite of its competitiveness. This means that it may happen than on all races, there are many options, that is, increased diversity.
But there are many variables and it's people who choose cars and we're human... and you know, it's like economists trying to predict what will happen with a Latin American currency! XD
Quote from: Cas on January 05, 2021, 06:27:29 PM
Uhm... what Duplode says is making me think I should always include an original alternative in R4K when the race is based on a custom-made car. I'll implement that.
Well, I'd say that would be going too far in the other directions. I think the requirements for ZakStunts are a bit different: given how it tries to cater to as broad a range of tastes as possible (for instance, through multi-car races or the GAR scoreboard), it makes sense for it to go the extra mile when it comes to the ease of getting started. Besides that, highlighting new or overlooked custom cars is becoming part of R4K's identity already, and I don't see a need for diluting that.
(By the way, I don't think custom cars are a big barrier to entry, as long as it is easy to figure out where to get and how to install them. Maybe there is some useful data to be gathered from past scoreboards on whether custom cars have had any effect over newbie activity.)
Quote from: Daniel3D on January 05, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
But with more than 15 custom cars now available it feels as a limitation that only 5 are selected.
Maybe we can expand that to 9?
That way we have a selection of 20 car's instead of 16.
Or extended to 8 with a track bonus car (selected by track creator) so total is 20 as well..
The two main concerns I'd have with making more cars available would be with the balance of the bonus system, as Cas notes (more cars means more bonus points to be redistributed every race, and therefore wilder bonus swings), and with it taking too long for some cars to resurface and have a fair shot at a podium. Regardless of that, though, the track bonus car idea is quite interesting!
Quote from: Cas on January 05, 2021, 08:06:29 PM
As a result, at a point, there will be more cars that could work well on a race than can fit in the podium and therefore, at least one of them will raise again in spite of its competitiveness.
That could be solved by giving top 4 or 5 a negative mod, (15 points to divide, or more with a extra bonus for the car's that haven't seen the podium longest)
If that would work..
Quote from: Duplode on January 05, 2021, 08:26:06 PM
Regardless of that, though, the track bonus car idea is quite interesting!
The problem I see with the track bonus car is determine the car bonus modifier, since it has no history...
Quote from: Overdrijf on November 22, 2020, 09:11:20 PM
You start with the number from last month, every car that didn't end up in the top 3 gets +1. The total amount of -'s needed to balance out those +1's (-15 if one car took all of the podium, -13 when there were three different cars) is split between the top 3 in such a way that the first place winner gets 50% of the -'s, second place gets 30% and third place gets 20%,
With 20 car's that could be;
Every car that didn't get top 5 gets +1 (total 15)
1st place -5 (1/3)
2nd place -4. (4/15)
3th place -3. (1/5)
4th place -2. (2/15)
5th place -1 (1/15)
(Total also 15)
But that may not be enough.
Quote from: Duplode on January 05, 2021, 08:26:06 PM
Quote from: Cas on January 05, 2021, 06:27:29 PM
Uhm... what Duplode says is making me think I should always include an original alternative in R4K when the race is based on a custom-made car. I'll implement that.
Well, I'd say that would be going too far in the other directions.
I agree and don't think that Race For Kicks needs to be changed. The custom cars are easy to download when they are used in a race or you can download the complete package, which is also compatible with ZakStunts.
One vote for bringing back the Melange. Good car.
Here we are: rules proposal for 2021!
I will remove the SuperKart, F40 and Audi DTM. The new custom cars would be:
- Trueno
- Lotus Esprit
- BMW DTM
- Mercedes DTM
- Melange
Two slow cars, two DTM cars to complete the rotation, and the Melange because we miss it.
No Pontiac, still untested, and no McLaren for this year. I think it would be interesting to bring them in at the same time next year, possibly
together with the Speedgate—and with very low bonuses. It would be cool to see this set in Race 4 Kicks 2021!
I prefer not to increase the number of custom cars further, both for accessibility, and because a large number of cars would make the first days of each race more "expensive", and even more difficult to collect leading time. As a note, we do want similar cars in the active set, so that each race can have multiple viable cars.
For 2021, I'd like to test
single-race car bonuses: the points assigned by the track author will only apply for that race, and then be reverted. As such, author points don't need to sum up to zero anymore. Points rotation will continue as normal.
A new rule will require replays
to be replayable from Options -> Load replay; this means participants will have to test powergear replays before uploading. If the car crashes, the replay will be invalid. I expect this rule to mostly affect extreme powergear laps, so it should not be a big obstacle.
LTB calculations will remain the same.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 09, 2021, 07:02:48 PM
For 2021, I'd like to test single-race car bonuses: the points assigned by the track author will only apply for that race, and then be reverted. As such, author points don't need to sum up to zero anymore.
Is there a maximum to this?
Some +10 and all others -10 would kind of unbalance it (if I understand the rules correctly.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 09, 2021, 07:02:48 PM
A new rule will require replays to be replayable from Options -> Load replay; this means participants will have to test powergear replays before uploading. If the car crashes, the replay will be invalid. I expect this rule to mostly affect extreme powergear laps, so it should not be a big obstacle.
As far as I know, I'm not able to load replays from the option menu. Haven't thoroughly tested it though. I thought it was broken... I will try with replays of the last live race. ...
Quote from: Daniel3D on January 09, 2021, 08:11:03 PM
Is there a maximum to this?
Some +10 and all others -10 would kind of unbalance it (if I understand the rules correctly.
I think we'll still have a maximum of ten point added or removed. That's
in total, not for each car. So you could change two cars, +10/-10, or 3 cars, +10/-7/-3, etc. Removing the "sums up to zero" requirement means you could add +6 to a car, -3 to another, and that's it.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 09, 2021, 08:14:00 PM
Quote from: Daniel3D on January 09, 2021, 08:11:03 PM
Is there a maximum to this?
Some +10 and all others -10 would kind of unbalance it (if I understand the rules correctly.
I think we'll still have a maximum of ten point added or removed. That's in total, not for each car. So you could change two cars, +10/-10, or 3 cars, +10/-7/-3, etc. Removing the "sums up to zero" requirement means you could add +6 to a car, -3 to another, and that's it.
Oo,.. ::) now it makes sense...
Nevermind then... :-X
I like the 2021 rotation. While CTG's case against the Melange (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?action=post;quote=76833;topic=3601.0;last_msg=77515) makes sense, I think the Audi is the most IMSA-like of the DTM cars, while the BMW is the least, so it should play out okay.
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 09, 2021, 07:02:48 PM
For 2021, I'd like to test single-race car bonuses: the points assigned by the track author will only apply for that race, and then be reverted. As such, author points don't need to sum up to zero anymore. Points rotation will continue as normal.
That's nice!
Quote from: dreadnaut on January 09, 2021, 07:02:48 PM
A new rule will require replays to be replayable from Options -> Load replay; this means participants will have to test powergear replays before uploading. If the car crashes, the replay will be invalid. I expect this rule to mostly affect extreme powergear laps, so it should not be a big obstacle.
While I can't help but feel this is a bit harsh, it seems
very few laps would be affected by this rule. In fact, even my unstable Z232 replay passes this test (that Overdrijf replay is really one of a kind!). So I guess I can live with it, especially given the added bonus of not having to think too hard about validation...
I reckon Dreadnaut's replayability rule is a very good example of how rules not necessarily complicate things. Sometimes, they make them much simpler. I'm not defending the rule, I mean, it's fine for me, but not having it is OK too... for me, anyway, a very unskilled pipsqueak :P What I'm defending here is myself and my often criticised tendency to implement rules or propose them.
Thoughts about replayability - off-topic
Back to replayability, the fact that Stunts calculates one thing while driving and another while replaying in some situations, makes me wonder what the heck the difference is inside the code. My guess is that some internal variables (coordinates, current speed, for example) in Stunts normally carry digits behind the binary point (in a fixed-point math system) during the game, but when loading, saving or when one continues driving from a certain point of a replay, this mantissa is set back to zero, losing the accumulated error. If the error was high and the car was very near the finish line or something it could crash again, this could lead to instability. Only thing not explained with this is why replays at normal speed can fail even when played continuously from the very beginning.
The proposed rules and custom cars for 2021 look good. I'm looking forward to the start of the season!
Anyway, giving my thumbs up to the new set up for 2021!! :)
Something funny I noticed. I just got my first pole position in a while, and I noticed the system is carrying over LTB from last season. Was that intended?
Quote from: Overdrijf on June 05, 2021, 12:52:30 PM
Something funny I noticed. I just got my first pole position in a while, and I noticed the system is carrying over LTB from last season. Was that intended?
Yes. Duplode also carried 85 (?) hrs LTB from 2020.
Quote from: ZakStunts message boardJan 17
dreadnaut
@CTG That was my idea yes. You and Duplode (and a few others) can get 300h+ easily, but for those that might collect just a few hours each race, a yearly reset would crush any hopes of accumulating enough hours.