Stunts Forum

Edited to place the reasoning behind this version in the correct context..

The NoRH version is actually a fact.

In the current original versions of STUNTS it is not possible to verify the use of the continue driving option in the replay menu, which is known as Replay Handling.
In other words, it's very easy and tempting to use. There is no risk and possible high reward.
That means a NoRH competition had been solely built on trust.

So, I have been asked several times if there was a possibility to build a version with the Continue driving option disabled. The answer to that is simple, yes, the option can be disabled. But that doesn't change anything if you can just use another version.

Making changes in the code and compile the game makes an executable that is relative easy to analyse and edit. So that was also something to keep in mind and not easily tackled.

The goal was to create a version of stunts that had;

• The continue driving option disabled
• A change that made Replay files incompatible with previous versions,
• Make it difficult to reverse engineer.

In other words. Raise the threshold to cheat in a NoRH race as high as possible. Within the confines of DOS. With some technical support from Duplode and a small test team (Argammon, Alan Rotoi, CAS and Erik Barros) We have come really close to that version.

I think we have gotten far enough to say "We can now organize NoRH competitions for real. With the knowledge that it's not likely that there will be cheated"

It is not possible to remove all the ways to cheat. It is still a DOS game, after all, and there are emulator functions and external tools that can be used to counter the limitations set in this version. But by removing the option from the game, nobody can claim it an accident. Cheating in this version is never an accident, but a deliberate action with appropriate consequences.

So, With that out off the way...

Anyone up to the challenge of a NoRH race?

Stunts-NoRH.zip download mirror (https://ntt.mystunts.net/Stunts-NoRH.zip)

You could make a pilot test in the next CCC race or something. I'd be willing to race and not cheat, ha, ha

Quote from: Cas on April 02, 2023, 08:38:29 PMYou could make a pilot test in the next CCC race or something. I'd be willing to race and not cheat, ha, ha

I think I would prefer to set a separate site for this.
But first, let's see if there are people interested in one..

I heartily congratulate @Daniel for the release of this project! It is a real breakthrough in the age-old NoRH problem, and the culmination of several strands of reverse engineering efforts, brought together by a spark of brilliance. I subscribe the expectation of Stunts NoRH 1.3 being a viable platform for NoRH racing.

One thing from the April fools post is true.
I did analyse the FM Towns version and did use some of it in this release.
For the sharp observers...

I feel version numbers here can be confusing, making people think that this is an actual Stunts version. Could you call it Stunts-NoRH, and use a separate version counter? (0.1 / v1 / 2023.04)

Would also be great if it saved replay with a different extension! (.rpx ?)

@dreadnaut Let's see what Daniel thinks about it, but meanwhile here are my two cents:

Quote from: dreadnaut on April 03, 2023, 12:05:07 AMWould also be great if it saved replay with a different extension! (.rpx ?)

I'm not sure that it would be a good idea. Considering that...

• We already have two different data formats for replays ("old format" versus "new format") which share the .rpl extension.
• Even given the same data format, the original releases of Stunts can interpret replays differently due to changes in game physics (for the old format, 1990 Broderbund versus 1990 Mindscape; for the new format, the 1991 DOS versions versus the FM Towns and PC-98 ones).
• In the future, we might have additional custom editions which other differences in replay interpretation, and I don't think we'll want a different extension for each possibility.
• All external replay processing tools would have to be tweaked to accept the new extension (as it stands, the vast majority of them can accept the NoRH version replays as they are).

... it's not clear to me that a different extension would make things clearer, or at least not to an extent that would make the change pay its weight.

Quote from: dreadnaut on April 03, 2023, 12:05:07 AMI feel version numbers here can be confusing, making people think that this is an actual Stunts version. Could you call it Stunts-NoRH, and use a separate version counter? (0.1 / v1 / 2023.04)

No strong opinion here. I'll note, though, that the original Stunts version numbers are a complete mess, to the point that for the sake of clarity I no longer use them to refer to releases, and that the odds of a forgotten original release with a distinct version number being unearthed are essentially zero. That being so, I lean towards thinkong that good documentation on the Wiki, readmes and other such documents should be enough to keep things manageable with no need for major changes in the naming scheme.

Thank you duplode for the reply I can only add a little bit of my reasoning.

• I don't think that changes to the extension of the replay will benefit anything.
• my modded versions are all compatible with the latest 2 versions of V1.1. that's why I ultimately choose to add a Mod number and keep the version number unaltered.
• for the NoRH version I wanted to stay close to original but also make it visually very distinctive.
• V1.3 communicates not compatible with other versions more than anything else.
• It think that recompiled versions should be included in the wiki as separate section in the version history.

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 03, 2023, 09:15:50 AMV1.3 communicates not compatible with other versions more than anything else.

V1.3 communicates increment over the existing versions.

If I were to release a version that disables the "Restart driving" menu item, what would that be? It can't be V1.3 as well, even if it builds on V1.2, but it also cannot be V1.4, because it does not include the changes in V1.3. By choosing V1.3 you take "ownership" of the sequence, for something that in my opinion branches out of the main "Stunts", into an exciting experiment.

Congratulations on the release of this version!  I've tried it out and at first glance, it appears to work as intended.  However, since this is the first I'm hearing about it and I wasn't included in the testing of this version for some reason, can you please explain why it's not likely that someone can cheat?  Of course I would be interested in a race or competition without replay handling, but a little more information about your anti-cheat measures would be appreciated.

Quote from: dreadnaut on April 03, 2023, 12:21:01 PM

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 03, 2023, 09:15:50 AMV1.3 communicates not compatible with other versions more than anything else.

V1.3 communicates increment over the existing versions.

If I were to release a version that disables the "Restart driving" menu item, what would that be? It can't be V1.3 as well, even if it builds on V1.2, but it also cannot be V1.4, because it does not include the changes in V1.3. By choosing V1.3 you take "ownership" of the sequence, for something that in my opinion branches out of the main "Stunts", into an exciting experiment.

You have a point. A view I didn't think about in that way.
I just viewed it in compatibility sense.

Let me chew on it for a bit..

Quote from: KyLiE on April 03, 2023, 02:04:53 PMbut a little more information about your anti-cheat measures would be appreciated.

I made a alteration to the physics calculations so that replay files will not be played the same in another version and vice versa.
Because it is a relatively small change I encrypted the executable to make it impossible to copy the changes to another version version (like the Ferrari edition).

You can only use the NoRH version to make replays that are playable in the NoRH version.

The discussion about version numbers was spun off into a separate thread (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4117.0).

Hi guys,

Great work! Although my amazement is limited somewhat by you pretending like all the talk about this was just a long setup for an April fools joke first. ::)

On the topic of a test race, Just maybe after the Zakstunts deadline... I'd be happy to use ZCT259 as Argammon suggested elsewhere, although for a first race I would suggest reversing or moving the finish line or something so you can practice the tricky bits* without a long wait each time. I'd also like to suggest FTT0204 if people aren't sick of powergear yet, or any other track from Feel The Thrill, as it was a NoRH competition. From my own work ZCT257 could work, or The Ottobahn, but maybe that and A Literal Race aren't quite "very first try out" material, I should try not to scare anyone off just yet.

I can also make a track for it, but not like right now now.


*This is going to be a bit of a thing in general. Since the physics were changed there is no version in which you can do RH powered practice runs of a section that are 100% accurate. So the placement of tricky sections in the lap becomes relevant for how quick we'll be to master them. My RH scouting laps are also often just my furthest attempt in the first half hour or so that I extend with RH, I'm going to have to plan these things a bit different going forward.

An adaptation of a live race track will be good for the first race..
I'll try to design something this weekend.
Before the ZakStunts deadline so we can promote it there.

Quote from: Overdrijf on April 06, 2023, 06:47:17 AM*This is going to be a bit of a thing in general. Since the physics were changed there is no version in which you can do RH powered practice runs of a section that are 100% accurate. So the placement of tricky sections in the lap becomes relevant for how quick we'll be to master them. My RH scouting laps are also often just my furthest attempt in the first half hour or so that I extend with RH, I'm going to have to plan these things a bit different going forward.

The difference is not so big that you can't practice in normal gameplay. But you may notice the difference.

Just found this post...

Quote from: Duplode on January 22, 2009, 08:31:19 PM

Quote from: Cas on January 22, 2009, 06:56:05 AM- A system could be added so that replays were encrypted, allowing Stunts championships to verify if replays were handled or not without needing to record a video (I've already tried to do this once in a different way)

 I am a bit skeptical on the possibility of taming/eliminating RH (and the implications of such a deed for game mechanics and competitions), but there's more opinion than fact in my position...

After 14 years  8) it's has happened..

 ::)

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 02, 2023, 10:04:50 PMOne thing from the April fools post is true.
I did analyse the FM Towns version and did use some of it in this release.
For the sharp observers...

No sharp observer's so far... I wonder when someone will find
the Unidentified FM Towns Object... 8)

I hate to burst the bubble, but what's to stop people from using save states to perform replay handling?

Quote from: KyLiE on April 17, 2023, 10:52:12 AMI hate to burst the bubble, but what's to stop people from using save states to perform replay handling?

If we are going down that path there will never be a NoRH competition. And no point in me continuing to try to make that possible.

There will always be ways to cheat. The only thing I did was make it an effort to do so.
Something you can't do by accident or out of habit after racing a RH competition.

SO, yeah. I knew. Before I started this whole project, I already considered it.
But should I not do it because there may be some idiot trying this? We know each other well enough for this. There is nothing to be gained, and a lot to risk.
Like Argammon pointed out. Strong pipsqueaks in one competition form are strong in the other as well. So cheating will probably not go unnoticed.

Nobody can claim it was an accident, so cheating is something serious enough to get banned from competition. (zakstunts rules apply).

Lets not worry about cheating until there is reason to do so.
And just enjoy the Racing.

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 17, 2023, 11:23:26 AMThere will always be ways to cheat. The only thing I did was make it an effort to do so.

The reason I mentioned save states is because they are available in several versions of DOSBox and it takes little to no effort to use them.  It's a matter of transparency, similar to telling someone that you can use traditional replay handling in Stunts when they weren't already aware that was possible.

Quote from: KyLiE on April 17, 2023, 12:34:51 PM

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 17, 2023, 11:23:26 AMThere will always be ways to cheat. The only thing I did was make it an effort to do so.

The reason I mentioned save states is because they are available in several versions of DOSBox and it takes little to no effort to use them.  It's a matter of transparency, similar to telling someone that you can use traditional replay handling in Stunts when they weren't already aware that was possible.

You just showed Adam the apple tree. Í don't think it was necessary to bring this to our attention this way.
I hope nobody uses it. Would be a nasty experience.

Quote from: KyLiE on April 17, 2023, 12:34:51 PM

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 17, 2023, 11:23:26 AMThere will always be ways to cheat. The only thing I did was make it an effort to do so.

The reason I mentioned save states is because they are available in several versions of DOSBox and it takes little to no effort to use them.  It's a matter of transparency, similar to telling someone that you can use traditional replay handling in Stunts when they weren't already aware that was possible.

If transparency is the point, why didn't you inform the community before the race started?

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 17, 2023, 11:23:26 AMI knew. Before I started this whole project, I already considered it.

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 17, 2023, 01:30:07 PMYou just showed Adam the apple tree.

So that means I'm Eve and you're the snake?  Seriously though, I don't know why you're playing the blame game.  When would you prefer for this information to be revealed?  Now, or after a new community member joins the competition and shoots to the top of the scoreboard, causing everyone to question if it's possible to cheat?  I mean, if both of us knew, isn't it likely that so do many others?

If what you say is true, that we trust each other and cheating probably won't go unnoticed, what's the issue?  Carry on with the competition!  I'm not concerned about the currently active community members, I'm concerned about newcomers, like what happened with the DOSReloaded.de fiasco.

Quote from: Argammon on April 17, 2023, 02:02:00 PMIf transparency is the point, why didn't you inform the community before the race started?

I only thought about it today when I was looking at different versions of DOSBox to test the replays that have recently been discussed in the Unstable replays at ZakStunts (https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4119.0) thread.

QuoteSo that means I'm Eve and you're the snake?  Seriously though, I don't know why you're playing the blame game.  When would you prefer for this information to be revealed?

I purposely withheld the information because there was an atmosphere of positivity and excitement that I didn't want to spoil without good reason.
Maybe that was wrong. But it saddens me to see it spoiled in this way.

I had hoped for more than 3 days of carefree NoRH..

I see no snakes around me, and Paradise (Stunts Valhalla?) is a long way down the road, so maybe let's unwind this a little.

@KyLiE asked a reasonable question, which in turn has a reasonable answer. Specifics and technicalities aside, it boils down to this: while there's indeed only so much we can do to secure a 30+ year old game being played in a non-networked way, we can make it easier to do the right thing and harder to do the wrong thing. That, plus trying out new approaches to a question as old as competition racing, is all there is to it. There is no cause for alarm, no ominous clouds approaching, and as far as I can tell the atmosphere remains perfectly breathable. Are we good? Is the racetrack open for a drive at this hour in the night?

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 16, 2023, 05:22:53 PM

Quote from: Daniel3D on April 02, 2023, 10:04:50 PMOne thing from the April fools post is true.
I did analyse the FM Towns version and did use some of it in this release.
For the sharp observers...

No sharp observer's so far... I wonder when someone will find
the Unidentified FM Towns Object... 8)

Is it the default replay?

I never watch that thing, but this version feels particularly incompetent.

Quote from: Overdrijf on April 19, 2023, 12:57:33 PMIs it the default replay?

Nope that's not it. when you find it you will know without a doubt..  ;)

Edit:
(Because it is taking to long and I can't contain myself 😜)
Hint.: You don't have to do anything special to see it.

Quote from: alanrotoi on January 29, 2024, 02:54:57 PMPlease let me know if you find any error in the car in general or an easter egg in the dashboard. ;)

Talking about Easter eggs 😎

Did anyone find the Easter egg in the NoRH version yet?

I really did take something from the FM-Towns version and put it in there.

I guess nobody has the patience to wait for it.. 😆

• find the Unidentified FM Towns Object..
  
• You don't have to do anything special to see it.
• patience to wait for it..

Quote from: Daniel3D on January 29, 2024, 04:08:18 PM

• find the Unidentified FM Towns Object..
  
• You don't have to do anything special to see it.
• patience to wait for it..

What a mistery! I like that! :D  :D

Uhm... was the purple Lambo in the default replay already present in the DOS version?  I don't remember because I never let the demo play, ha, ha. I used to when I had 1.0, but there I had a different demo

Quote from: Cas on January 29, 2024, 06:00:04 PMUhm... was the purple Lambo in the default replay already present in the DOS version?  I don't remember because I never let the demo play, ha, ha. I used to when I had 1.0, but there I had a different demo

The default replay is new obviously. Older replays are not compatible by design.

Ah!!  I'm looking at the wrong one. This is the regular CCC with the NoPG car set!  Sorry, ha, ha

I remembered that I need to buy a cleaning robot to test one of these days.  ::)

Quote from: Erik Barros on January 29, 2024, 10:27:13 PMI remembered that I need to buy a cleaning robot to test one of these days.  ::)

Hahaha.. Guess you found it.
Please share a screenshot. There is something I want to tell about it..

Quote from: Daniel3D on January 29, 2024, 10:49:17 PM

Quote from: Erik Barros on January 29, 2024, 10:27:13 PMI remembered that I need to buy a cleaning robot to test one of these days.  ::)

Hahaha.. Guess you found it.
Please share a screenshot. There is something I want to tell about it..

Sure!! Is it present in the FMTowns version?

Definitely!  A UFO! :o

Yes, the files are slightly different in the FM towns. But this comes from a car model file (STUFOO.3sh) . There is nothing else. Don't know where it is used in the game.
The original and converted version of the file attached below.

Quote from: Cas on January 29, 2024, 06:00:04 PMUhm... was the purple Lambo in the default replay already present in the DOS version?  I don't remember because I never let the demo play, ha, ha. I used to when I had 1.0, but there I had a different demo

I used to let it play now and then, but I always replaced the default replay with the last Zakstunts winner, so it was never the same replay for more than a month.

Quote from: KyLiE on April 17, 2023, 03:02:20 PMI'm concerned about newcomers, like what happened with the DOSReloaded.de fiasco.

We can always ask people to video-record their laps just in case one is too suspicious. I don't mean the admin has to watch them all as Mark did back in the day, but just as "proof" in case it's needed.

Keep in mind too that a "bad" RH pipsqueak may be a solid No-RH one if his main problem is lack of time or patience to try each and every part of the track endlessly looking for perfection