Stunts Forum

Welcome.

I'd like everyone to read this, especially those who run/plan to run a competiition.

ZakStunts rules will change a lot in 2004. There'll be no dual league, no amateur/average rankings, fading scores. Surprised? I'll explain.

In 3 years ZakStunts became quite popular on the net. First with extreme advertising, then without advertising newbies gathered, and either they stayed or left us.
The point system every year was a bigger problem than last year. How to make it fair for the best, and still intresting for the newbies.
And as in 2003 pipsqueak number was constatnly high, the smaller competitions starved, there weren't enough pipsqueaks.
Also I'm a bit tired to manage all the replays and stuff.
I don't want to dominate the stunts community, I'd like to see all the smaller competitions to live.
If you were clever enough you have seen the first signs of this in 2003 too.
So here are the changes:

1. ZakStunts
Of course everyone can join the competition, but the main aim will be to provide the most correct and proper rankings for the best 10-12 stunts pipsqueaks known. Main rules (all cars, shortcuts) wont change, there wont be a secondary competition, there wont be retro tracks.
Any new pipsqueak who wants to join ZakStunts will be told to join some other competition too, and train there to rise the skills, because here he maybe won't find too much success in the beginning.

2. http://stunts.mine.nu
When you'll type this address into your browser, not ZakStunts will appear, but a portal-like thing, where stunts competition managers can sign up their own competition, publish the short rules, the difficulty level some fresh news always, and of course a link. The name will also change, I don't know what it'll be, but we'll find out. I'll re-register this page at every abandonware ring I know, and I'll try to advertise it much.
ZakStunts will be only a competition listed between the others.

3. My home server
A new HDD will be installed soon, the site will be down for 1-3 days until the system is reinstalled and configured. Then it'll be possible to hand out accound with php+sql support+50meg+email space for anyone who requests it. It'll be a web-hosting service with some restrictions:
a. the site must run a stunts competition/info about stunts/a racing team
b. the site must sign up for the portal site
I'll provide of course the forum and the chatroom + bots for everyone at request.
Of course its not needed to be hosted by my server to be on the portal site.

4. Help
If you have any good idea to run a competition, then I'll help as much I can to set it up. It might be a continous one, or a 1-3 month occasional type, I don't care. I'd like to see as many competitions as possible, with the most unique rules you can ever imagine.
And it's of course possible, that for example in ZakStunts you get additional bonus points for a win in a smaller competition (of course only if you are a so called "newbie")

That's all.
I'm not sure if I can finish all these things in 2003 but I'll try.

Zak

I did a quick draft of the opening portal site:

http://stunts.mine.nu/portal/index.html


comments welcome.
Zak

About portal:

It looks very nice :) Maybe only menu move more to left, and do news section the same width as is banner. Also instead of competitors add average number of drivers per race.

(http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pere.hendaye/stuntscard.gif)

My idea about ZakStunts rankings:

Dual league, but no fading scores. There would be two kinds of points: top10 drivers of the race gets Pro points, and all below - Amateur points. Points system: 10-8-6-...-1-0-0. If someone by accident will be in top10 for one or two races and gets Pro points, at the end of season it will be transfered to Amateur points with formula Am_pts=Pro_pts+10*Pro_races. E.g., z21 - 8th, 1 Pro point; z22 - 14th, 5 Am pts; z23 - 9th, 0 Pro pts; z24 - 12th, 8 Am pts. In overal would be: 1 Pro_pts+10*2+13 Am_pts=34 Am_pts.

I recalculated this season scores based on this system. The rankings remained almost the same:
1st Alain - 81; 2nd Akss Poo - 69; 3rd Bonzai Joe - 63; 4th Argummon - 45; 5th Alan Rotoi - 31; 6th Krys Toff - 25; 7th-8th CTG and Zaqrack - 20; 9th XDude - 18; 10th Usrin - 17; 11th Mingva - 14; 12th Doelloos - 12.
The best amateur - Leo Ramone with 56 Am pts, then goes Myron, JTK, Ranger, Pedro Antonio, Dabuek, etc.
Note: LTB isn't included.

I sent excel sheet to Zak. I hope he'll write here that he thinks about it.

Sorry, double-post

I don't see the need for such a complicated points system, especially as there won't be any amateur league in 2004.

My points system suggestion:

1st place: 10 points
2nd place: 9 points
3rd place: 8 points
4th place: 7 points
5th place: 6 points
6th place: 5 points
7th place: 4 points
8th place: 3 points
9th place: 2 points
10th place: 1 point

This is the most simple, correct and succesful points system. There is no need to give extra bonus to the first 2 pipsqueaks, when after all, it's not an exponentially bigger achievement to be first than third or fifth. That would be like giving away bonus seconds in time trials in Tour de France, if you know what I mean. I also don't think there will be any need for the rule that only 10 or 11 out of 13 races count. There has been a need for this rule this year, but because of the change of Zakstunts to a kind of Elite competition, I think it is unnecessary. It only slurs the result, and since it is the elite that plays here, I don't think we should expect some newbie to come and beat us all in the last half of the year. With this system, ZakStunts would be simple and brilliant, and give the most exact picture of the ranking of Stunts pipsqueaks.
I must add, that the LTB should be kept. It slurs the result a bit too, but the competition would be too boring (only existing on the last day of the race) without it.

And about the Portal: it looks great, but I would like something even more simple also, maybe just all the competition logos (as links) on the top of the page, in order to be ridirected quickly, and then the descriptions below? Otherwise very nice design and concept.

Nice plans, but I have the same problem with Jacky. You mustn't make the system too overcomplicated...  :)

ZakStunts rule plans:

http://stunts.mine.nu/index.php?page=rules2004&menu=comp[/url]

I don't like 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 as a win should be something special and someone with 5 wins and 5 3rd places should be above someone with just 2nd places!

The difference between podium and no podium should be easily seen also!

That's why they used 10,6............. system in Forumula 1 for years before they used the stupid new system to stop schumacher..


The tour de france analogy is wrong because we are not using a system where we add the time from race to race but instead points!
And to make it still possible for greatly skilled new pipsqueaks who join at perhaps may or june to win the comp the first place has to be special because with a 10,9,8..... system it's mostly about taking part in all races!

Why all?

Imagine the following case:

pipsqueak A gets the following scores : 10,10,10,10,10,8,8,4,4,6,8,8,8

according to his skill level if he races all races.In this case he would 'loose' the 4's and get 96 points.

Now imagine the same pipsqueak is lazy and does not race 2 random races :

10,10,0,10,0,8,8,4,4,6,8,8,8

In this case he would get only 84 points!


The conclusion is simple:The 2 races don't count rule is not really an option for pipsqueaks who can't race all tracks to fight for the championship in a 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 system

Next conclusion: We need bigger differences between the top places and the rest so winning is more important than 'racing all races'!

My suggestion:

15,11,8,6,5,4,3,2,1

I strongly suggest that points are something special and are not thrown after every pipsqueak like in the real NASCAR system!
If I were new and I would earn a point I would be proud of it.More proud as if I were new and would get 120 points in a stupid nascar system awarding points to all pipsqueaks!

Zak and Argammon came up with a great percentage rule which calculates the % difference between place 1 and 6 (all good drivers) and awards some points to the newbie drivers who come close to approximatly the double amount of points.
That way new drivers CAN get bonus points if they raced strongly but due to a high number of regular drivers did not manage to place top 10 or whatever!

I hope I won't disclose to much by saying that Zak wants to add a system with a korrelation of leading time and checkpoint bonuses to make the race more interesting during the month.

The combination of regular points for strong pipsqueaks only,bonus points for pipsqueaks who raced strongly but did not get regular points because the activity of strong pipsqueaks is was to high and INTERRACE -TM- points to create an interesting monthly contest makes up for the best system I have seen in any competition yet.And thus I would strongly suggest to use it.

About the LTB:

I think it works perfectly well IF most pipsqueaks are able to race during all of the month.But in those (for me) many cases where you can just race the last 5 races the difference between 0 and 6 points seems to be very big.

For example in that case 8th place would be as worth as 5th.
Of course if pipsqueak A gets 4 LTP and pipsqueak B gets 6th we got no problem! but just imagine A is away for 2 weeks or has to learn for exams all the time and he is screwed that month :)

Zak already said he does not want to use 'half' points because of coding problems and wants to give 6 pipsqueaks points.

Few ideas:

1) 4,3,3,2,2,1    Solves the problem of pipsqueak A (at least to some extent) but is not exactly fair to the pipsqueaks who get the same amount as those placed 1 behind them in LTB.

2)6,5,4,3,2,1 Player 'A' problem

3)Keep 6,5,4,3,2,1 but increase monthly points to say 24 for the winner!
In that case the LTB would be worth 1/4 of the monthly score compared to 1/5 to the 2003 system and 1/3 to the system suggested at 'http://stunts.mine.nu/index.php?page=rules2004&menu=comp'

IMO that's the best idea.........

I don't like Zak's suggested point system, but it's ok :( I'd better choose current F1 system. I have some remarks about bonus points too:

1) Time Difference Bonus. Maybe top6 should have only +1 and other below them with good times +2?
2) Leading Position?Bonus. I'm not verry happy about it :| It would be ok only with automatic scoreboard update. Or it will be? Because if not, I don't see reasons why script should check scoreboard every hour.
3) Newbie Motivation Bonus. Maybe this bonus should be available in first 3 months? btw, newbs will get those points only by racing in Zak's and another comp.? And what about those, who'll race in few contests? If their points will be added, then they can collect even more points than ZCT winner :!: :?

P.S. Why you chose top6 and not top5  :?: :lol:

Today I read in the newspaper some rules of a local championship called TC-2000.

They say that points of pipsqueaks who joins the competition in the last 3 races doesn't count in the overall. So the come of a super newbie (or a possible ghost) won't change the overall ranking. If there will be a fight for the overall ranking or the whole championship, the newbie won't change the normal curse of it.

Just an idea. :roll:

i have some ideas:

- team bonus: +2 points to pipsqueaks of a team if they are both in top 5
- nation bonus: +2 points to the pipsqueaks of the nation which collected the most points
- new trick bonus: +3 points to a pipsqueak who found a new trick in Stunts history
- power gear bonus: +1 points to a pipsqueak who found power gear
- best section bonus: +1 points to the winner of each section of the track
- most jumps bonus: +1 points to the pipsqueak who made the most jumps
- least jumps bonus: +1 points to the pipsqueak who made the least jumps
- newbie jump bonus: +1 points to the newbie who made the most jumps
- acceleration bonus: +2 points who pressed the acceleration key for the longest time
- auto trm bonus: +1 points to the best pipsqueak who used auto trm
- first replay bonus: +1 points for the pipsqueak who sent the first rpl
- fair play bonus: +1 points for the pipsqueak who didn't sent a time in the quiet days
- entering bonus: +1 points for the pipsqueak who sent a rpl in the first 10 days
- fun bonus: +1 points for the pipsqueak who sent the most funny and insane rpl on the track
- love bonus: +2 points for the pipsqueak who is in love, because he can't drive as fast as originally when he is in love

Can you feel the irony? Maybe you understood me. I agree with Jacky and CTG, the system is overcomplicated... overcomplicated very much. Last year Zak complicated the system, and in the end it turned out that the rankings would have been the same if we had only added the points together. This year's system is much more compliated, and it seems Zak wants to even more overcomplicate the system in 2004. That would keep away me from ZakStunts and make me prefer a different competition, for example Kalpen.

The scoring must be 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, and maybe only one bonus, the leading time bonus: 1 points for the pipsqueak who had the leading position for the longest time. It works nicely at IRC, and there are replays during the whole month. Time hiders like Roy Wiegerick are not there at the moment.

I dislike that wwe can score extremely highly by fighting for bonuses. This is a clear advantage for the Stunts machines who can drive each day. I do my rpl when I have time for it, and if I did it in the last week, I would have no chance to get LTB (that would mean -6 points to the LTB winner). And can you mention a month when there were 6 leaders in a month? The big drivers who are Stunts machines will harvest the 6, 5 maybe 4 points and won't let the second category drivers to get the 3, 2 and 1. And the values are too high compared to ranking points, and time difference bonus as well.

Time difference bonus: good idea, but each good driver would get it, redundant.

Newbie motivation bonus: ridiculous. This is not the way competition managers should motivate them. Not 100% based on performance, so this is only to make the system even more complicated.

The real value of rankings would disappear, please delete the WHOLE system and create a new one, without any redundant complication.

IMHO the best pipsqueak is not only who achivies the best time.
Several other skills are needed, and I always liked to honour those who spend more time on racing. I know that with my current lifestyle some months I drive once, some month 10 times.
If there are two pipsqueaks with the same result, and one drove 1 hour, the other 10 hours for that result, I kno wthat the one sho spent 1hr is the better driver - but I's still give more points for the pipsqueak who spent more time on that result.
For me the easiest would be to leave this year's rules - no work at all -. But I'm selfish. I want to enjoy managing the race, and for me the most enjoyable thing is when there's life on the scoreboard, when people are fighting for the places. And I guess its much more fun to race that way also.

Akoss: You can be against bonus,leading time,newbie bonus or whatever bonus you can think of.But that does not change the fact that a 10,9,8,6,5,4,3,2,1 system is bad for the suspense of the championship and not fair at all.

Read my first post (by guest) as to why.

Quote from: "Mingva"I don't like Zak's suggested point system, but it's ok :( I'd better choose current F1 system. I have some remarks about bonus points too:

1) Time Difference Bonus. Maybe top6 should have only +1 and other below them with good times +2?

excellent idea, we'll use this way.

2) Leading Position?Bonus. I'm not verry happy about it :| It would be ok only with automatic scoreboard update. Or it will be? Because if not, I don't see reasons why script should check scoreboard every hour.
I could start automatice scoreupdate even tomorrow. Because I can code thousands of checking if RPL is valid, in the end I always have to view all, and correct the possible fakes. So it'd be the following way:
I'll use the same script as for the liverace, these uploaded rpls appear on the scoreboard, with a mark that they are unchecked, and then in the evening I DL the rpls from the server and check them manually, corrext any fakes, and validate the scores.

Quote
P.S. Why you chose top6 and not top5  :?: :lol:

I hope there'll be at least that many pipsqueaks as this year, and I like the number 6 :)

Quote from: "Anonymous"Akoss: You can be against bonus,leading time,newbie bonus or whatever bonus you can think of.But that does not change the fact that a 10,9,8,6,5,4,3,2,1 system is bad for the suspense of the championship and not fair at all.

Read my first post (by guest) as to why.

That system is completely fair, or at least by far the most fair system you can imagine, even if it has some problems. The amount of points you get corresponds with the place you got, how is that a problem?

QuoteI like the number 6

I don't !!!
(http://imsacup.free.fr/6.gif)

1st of all I want to make clear that I trusted and I trust in Zak. I say it to show you it's not a bad message against him.

I just can't understand something. I'm happy because the competitions/teams pages will have (if managers wants) a lot of space and free-ads domain to place their sites.

But I can't understand a single thing about you said. I mean there is a kind of dual speach (It sounds hard but it isn't!!) as far as I understand with my poor english.

You say: "I don't want to dominate the stunts community" but after it you give us the possibility of upload our sites in your HDD. You may have the stunts community in your hand literally if we all put our sites there. I see it maybe not as a domination but as a big responsibility.

As I said I trust in Zak and I would be calm if he knows all my passwords (I know with his system he won't know our passwords), also from my mailboxes because I know which kind of people he is.

I hope my message is understood.

h?h? who is the paranoid? there are free webspace providers everywhere, you are not forced.

Nobody will ban you here :) banning is your methods

I guessed it was enough well explained... and it IS.

If you say it is because you didn't read my message well. Please read it again.

... and personal things out of this topic alain. I call the moderator for it.

what is that? do you think you are at home here, to act like that? respect the other pipsqueaks... listening to the others is respecting. HERE YOU CANT DO NOTHING TO NOBODY![/img]

What are you talking about Alain?

... no comment you seem like a cork to me.

back to the original topic, please...  :x

aaaaah, new year just started. Few days left till opening Stunts season  :)

Hey Zak, happy new year! And then: You put me out of your competition links list. Only because the Kalpen's contest does not last a whole year long? Or...?

On ZakStunts there'll be no links page, if you mean the portal, then you have to send your data and banner to me.

Yes, I meant the portal. I'm sending the information to you.

go on with it, its wonderful :)

It's also wonderful to see you restraining yourself and talking like a sane person on the forum Alain. Although of course insanity has its time and place. Now get back in the car and race 8)

Hey Alain,

what about you keeping the old articles of Stunts'R'us alive? Where did you leave them?