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#1
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by alanrotoi - Today at 12:32:14 AMQuote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 11:08:53 PMHe is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple.
Yes, this was the zct243 but not always was like this. The point of the video is to show no matter the effort I did or the crazy tricks I tryied, he beated me with a simplier but perfect drive that was the best choice.
Quote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 11:08:53 PMCan we stop this silly discussion?It was never a discussion from me. So no hard feelings from my part. This is an exchange of point of view and opinions. There is no tier list of opinions
. CTG said a valid point in my list about akoss' performance. I see good will in the comments of this thread so we can keep doing and sharing lists! #2
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by MiDiaN - Yesterday at 11:52:05 PMI'm still pretty new to this community, so I won't make a full tier list, but after watching a bunch of replays from top players, I wanted to share some notable ones. This is just my personal list, sorry if I missed anyone.
Alien-tier 👽 - You start wondering if these players are human or some kind of secret AI experiment gone rogue.
Renato Biker, Ayrton, Alan Rotoi
S-tier 💎 - Flawless lines, no mistakes. Almost pixel-perfect driving.
Gutix, Duplode, CTG, Akoss Poo, FinRok, Alain
Alien-tier 👽 - You start wondering if these players are human or some kind of secret AI experiment gone rogue.
Renato Biker, Ayrton, Alan Rotoi
S-tier 💎 - Flawless lines, no mistakes. Almost pixel-perfect driving.
Gutix, Duplode, CTG, Akoss Poo, FinRok, Alain
#3
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by Argammon - Yesterday at 11:08:53 PMQuote from: alanrotoi on Yesterday at 09:49:10 PMQuote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 09:34:25 PMAll I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective.
Of course, that's the meaning. This doesn't make it any less important. To show and to know our personal subjectivety in a tier format. It's important to know how we think and how we see each other. There won't be a wrong tier list and also there can be more than one tier list from every of us since we can have many subjectiveties or points of view according to the many virtues a pipsqueak's performance can be catalogued.
Every opinion,always is made from facts and from subjectivety. We should fear an IA if it developes subjectivety... or not. But how it works my opinion here? I know I can beat you at any time as I also know you can beat me at any time. I can't say the same with Duplode. This video is the best way to explain my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8JXL2gFTo
He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple. Can we stop this silly discussion?
#4
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by alanrotoi - Yesterday at 09:49:10 PMQuote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 09:34:25 PMAll I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective.
Of course, that's the meaning. This doesn't make it any less important. To show and to know our personal subjectivety in a tier format. It's important to know how we think and how we see each other. There won't be a wrong tier list and also there can be more than one tier list from every of us since we can have many subjectiveties or points of view according to the many virtues a pipsqueak's performance can be catalogued.
Every opinion,always is made from facts and from subjectivety. We should fear an IA if it developes subjectivety... or not. But how it works my opinion here? I know I can beat you at any time as I also know you can beat me at any time. I can't say the same with Duplode. This video is the best way to explain my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8JXL2gFTo
#5
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by alanrotoi - Yesterday at 09:41:49 PMAbout tier E I deliverated added Skid here. From a personal POV at least Skid's performance (a bit above him and a bit under him) is still an amateur level. When I joined the community I was at that level. I beated Skid 90% of times at home competitions (My brother, AI opponents and me). Try this exercise: a track without water, without bridges, without PG, without pipes or corkscrews and without shortcuts (try to stay on the road mainly). Only asphalt, banked roads, highways, loops. Race against Skid both with the same car, then tell me if he's that easy.
#6
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by Argammon - Yesterday at 09:34:25 PMQuote from: alanrotoi on Yesterday at 08:48:01 PM(...)
What is good of this tier tool is to make it easy the personal point of view, the feeling or impressions about ourselves and the rest. That's not good or bad, it's the truth from every of us.
I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.
(...)
I wrote that I do not like blowing my own horn and that is true. Hence, I am not going to continue doing it. All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective. Because you, Alanrotoi, rate the replays of your personal top four more highly than mine you conclude that they are a tier above me.
There is no possible way for me to "refute" such a subjective view. Hence, let us just agree to disagree.
Edit: To clarify, I don't have a problem that we disagree on these subjective "tiers". It is fine with me that you do not see me in your personal top 4. I am just pointing out that our rankings are of a very subjective nature and that I do not agree with yours.
#7
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by alanrotoi - Yesterday at 08:48:01 PMWhat is good of this tier tool is to make it easy the personal point of view, the feeling or impressions about ourselves and the rest. That's not good or bad, it's the truth from every of us.
I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.
I remember Gutix doing this trick, somebody would remind me which track it was.
Duplode is a giant that likes to sleep a lot He's the best active pipsqueak.
About Akoss' performance I put him in B tier, probably because I didn't race against him at his prime when I wasn't sending elaborated replays. I feel CTG from 2021 was harder to race than Akoss 2003 (not his prime). That's why the different tiers in my evaluation.
MiDiaN is a surprise for me. He came from paleolitic Stunts eras like Mark Nailwood (who I worship as the best of the pre-ZakStunts era). He (MiDiaN) is showing an unimaginable performance and he's growing and growing. I see in him potential to stay in tier A but I also know he didn't show everything he can do yet. So I'll keep watching him because the big 4 could find the 5th mate. If I can play Palpatine once again (I did it with Gutix and Ayrton) it would be fantastic. I hope the language won't be a barrier.
And as I like top tiers, I find a lot of fun in the fights that doesn't appear in the newspapers. I mean to be in a B or C tiers doesn't mean the fights, the races or the tricks are less interesting. Back in 2021 I followed close the season fight between Overdrijf, dreadnaut, Zapper and Heretic. These "silent" fights must be awarded somehow. That's why we started to elaborated ideas like PTB, a wider point system that covers more pipsqueaks than the top 4. I think it needs few fixes but i's already a success.
I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.
Quote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 06:00:24 PMhttps://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT280 (First flight of that type in competition)
I remember Gutix doing this trick, somebody would remind me which track it was.
Duplode is a giant that likes to sleep a lot
He's the best active pipsqueak. About Akoss' performance I put him in B tier, probably because I didn't race against him at his prime when I wasn't sending elaborated replays. I feel CTG from 2021 was harder to race than Akoss 2003 (not his prime). That's why the different tiers in my evaluation.
MiDiaN is a surprise for me. He came from paleolitic Stunts eras like Mark Nailwood (who I worship as the best of the pre-ZakStunts era). He (MiDiaN) is showing an unimaginable performance and he's growing and growing. I see in him potential to stay in tier A but I also know he didn't show everything he can do yet. So I'll keep watching him because the big 4 could find the 5th mate. If I can play Palpatine once again (I did it with Gutix and Ayrton) it would be fantastic. I hope the language won't be a barrier.
And as I like top tiers, I find a lot of fun in the fights that doesn't appear in the newspapers. I mean to be in a B or C tiers doesn't mean the fights, the races or the tricks are less interesting. Back in 2021 I followed close the season fight between Overdrijf, dreadnaut, Zapper and Heretic. These "silent" fights must be awarded somehow. That's why we started to elaborated ideas like PTB, a wider point system that covers more pipsqueaks than the top 4. I think it needs few fixes but i's already a success.
#8
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by Argammon - Yesterday at 08:03:32 PMI was afraid that a thread like this would not end well.
@MiDiaN: Regarding your comment "Still, you've placed me in mid-B rank after KyLiE?", I did write that I did not rank the pipsqueaks within each tier.* Indeed, I started alphabetically with the first few before abandoning the idea because it took too much time.
Other than that, you are raising some valid points, but the issue is subtle. I mentioned our 9-1 score because it covers your entire Zakstunts career. Hence, our direct comparison is a very valid benchmark.
The question is how far we can stretch that kind of argument if one of the pipsqueaks is either "past prime" or not racing hard. One could argue that such a pipsqueak was much better in the past. Duplode is a good example in this context.
The problem with this line of argumentation is that it can be used as a killer argument because it can always be claimed that you only won because the competitors did not try hard. There is no way to refute that point. Hence, our "rankings" are highly subjective.
Your 9-1 score against Kylie is a valid argument of course. But does that mean that with a single race win you should be in the same tier as pipsqueaks who won one or more championships? Perhaps, or perhaps not. It seems that there are not enough tires to catch all the subtleties.
*If you must know, I think that you are the strongest pipsqueak in tier 3.
I would rank the tier 1 pipsqueaks as follows (please don't shoot me!): Ayrton, Argammon, Duplode, Gutix, Renato.
@MiDiaN: Regarding your comment "Still, you've placed me in mid-B rank after KyLiE?", I did write that I did not rank the pipsqueaks within each tier.* Indeed, I started alphabetically with the first few before abandoning the idea because it took too much time.
Other than that, you are raising some valid points, but the issue is subtle. I mentioned our 9-1 score because it covers your entire Zakstunts career. Hence, our direct comparison is a very valid benchmark.
The question is how far we can stretch that kind of argument if one of the pipsqueaks is either "past prime" or not racing hard. One could argue that such a pipsqueak was much better in the past. Duplode is a good example in this context.
The problem with this line of argumentation is that it can be used as a killer argument because it can always be claimed that you only won because the competitors did not try hard. There is no way to refute that point. Hence, our "rankings" are highly subjective.
Your 9-1 score against Kylie is a valid argument of course. But does that mean that with a single race win you should be in the same tier as pipsqueaks who won one or more championships? Perhaps, or perhaps not. It seems that there are not enough tires to catch all the subtleties.
*If you must know, I think that you are the strongest pipsqueak in tier 3.
I would rank the tier 1 pipsqueaks as follows (please don't shoot me!): Ayrton, Argammon, Duplode, Gutix, Renato. #9
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by MiDiaN - Yesterday at 07:02:37 PMQuote from: Argammon on Yesterday at 04:57:26 PMMy ranking is mostly based on Duplode's Historical Folyami ranking (https://scr.stunts.hu/folyami.html)Still, you've placed me in mid-B rank after KyLiE? My win rate against KyLiE is 9-1, while against Duplode it's 5-5 so far this season. It's gotta be something other than performance, right? There's no way this makes sense.
EDIT: Sorry I missed that you didn't rank within each tier. Still, able to defeat S-rank players after a over 20-year break and only B rank feels strange.
#10
General Chat - ZSC / Re: ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier ...
Last post by Argammon - Yesterday at 06:00:24 PMQuote from: alanrotoi on Yesterday at 05:41:05 PMI should also explain a bit my impressions. Maybe I'll make alive stream about it if I have the time butblet's write some thoughts. (...)
Every tier has different levels inside, so a tier is mor like a wide row of similarities but not always means same performances.
- the "S" big 4: they are Ayrton and then the rest. Maybe Renato Biker is a bit over Gutix and Duplode but it's hard to analyze only watching their replays, you had to live the moment and I think I wasn't contemporary to Renato's prime for example so I can't be 100% sure about it. What I don't have doubt is that they are over the rest of us. (...)
And here I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I do not feel comfortable blowing my own trumpet, but let me explain why I disagree:
In the old days, I am clearly not on the top tier. (So I agree with CTG's ranking in that sense). However, also considering 2023-2025 I think that I am. I do not base my assessment "only" on the Folyami rankings which are at least somewhat objective, but also on replays.
Before 2023, most of my replays were rather mundane. I did not produce any lap on the level of the following examples (not exhaustive):
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT260 (An impossible trick)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT264
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT280 (First flight of that type in competition)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT284 (Flight is repeated showing it is not a fluke but a tool)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT289
Yes, all of these examples are power-gear laps. But power gear is an important part of Zakstunts.
