Cars and rules for 2024

[dreadnaut]

Mmmh, so decreasing the overall "mass" of points shrinks the range? Need an envelope myself to check what happens to negative coefficients, the ones most likely to be applied to the Indy 🤔

[Argammon]

New Example (Indy vs P962): X=-25, Y=5, t^y=60

p=0 -> t^x = 45.6
p=4 -> t^x = 46.05  (all numbers rounded to two decimals, that also applies to my previous examples)

So, the Indy would benefit from the point deduction. 


Here is a plot showing how much faster/slower the Indy would have to drive than 45.6 to beat a 60 second lap of the P962. p=0 is the current situation in which 160 points move around, p=10 means 10 points are being deducted from all the cars etc.

You cannot view this attachment.

[dreadnaut]

Let's restart this discussion

After looking at various ways to adapt the bonus set, I'm starting to think that large bonus changes or veto rules on PG cars would create a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we push them low enough, they will only win by surprising everyone with an unexpected powergear lap. They will only ever be PG cars, no more driving the Indy on a flat fast track, or enjoying the Vette on a tricky twisty road.

So, a thought experiment. Assume we couldn't decrease bonus further, nor ban PG cars from a race, what other options to avoid unexpected PG wins can you think of?

Side question: when is PG win welcome?

[alanrotoi]

Maybe track builders can choose between a switch "PG cars on"/ "PG cars off" or +10/-10 but not both systems?


Maybe if there is any kind of car ban a secondary list of cars is allowed for that month to keep the number of cars per race?

[Cas]

Yeah, I think that'd be the best option. Or else, we have to actually verify replays and subjectively decide whether they are PG-replays and ban only PG-replays for certain tracks.

Even today, with the current system, PG-cars like the Indy are almost never used unless it is for a PG-run of the whole track, so they are already significantly affected.

[Daniel3D]

Let's restart this discussion

After looking at various ways to adapt the bonus set, I'm starting to think that large bonus changes or veto rules on PG cars would create a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we push them low enough, they will only win by surprising everyone with an unexpected powergear lap. They will only ever be PG cars, no more driving the Indy on a flat fast track, or enjoying the Vette on a tricky twisty road.

So, a thought experiment. Assume we couldn't decrease bonus further, nor ban PG cars from a race, what other options to avoid unexpected PG wins can you think of?

Side question: when is PG win welcome?

That was the reason for my anti PG track at the start of the season. It was a to Compact track for the fun mentioned above. For that I had the genie in the bottle track on CCC earlier.

[dreadnaut]

Yeah, I think that'd be the best option.

What were you referring to with "that" ?

[Daniel3D]

Yeah, I think that'd be the best option.

What were you referring to with "that" ?

Maybe track builders can choose between a switch "PG cars on"/ "PG cars off" or +10/-10 but not both systems?

[Daniel3D]

Side question: when is PG win welcome?

A PG lap is sometimes beautiful to watch. But I personally don't like them.
I can also see the skill and determination that goes into a PG win.
They are a part of ZakStunts and a part of what stunts makes unique.

So I think a PG win should stay possible.

I also think ZakStunts should have a detailed track building page with tips and tricks about bug prevention, PG breakers and tricks.

[Duplode]

After looking at various ways to adapt the bonus set, I'm starting to think that large bonus changes or veto rules on PG cars would create a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we push them low enough, they will only win by surprising everyone with an unexpected powergear lap. They will only ever be PG cars, no more driving the Indy on a flat fast track, or enjoying the Vette on a tricky twisty road.

I share this skepticism about measures that directly target PG cars. That's part of the reason why my earlier suggestion was PG-agnostic: spreading the bonuses a bit further all over, while also boosting cars that spend too many races without a win.

Side question: when is PG win welcome?

I think ZCT260 is a good example of a successful PG race: it was obvious from early on that it would be a GTO PG race, so everyone had plenty of time to focus on the car, practice the lines, watch public replays, and so forth. In contrast, ZCT261 wasn't as satisfying: a PG surprise in which the PG line, though requiring a touch of ingenuity, was not as interesting as the non-PG lines with Carrera/Challenger/Countach that were worked upon for most of the month. A PG late switch or surprise can be enjoyable if the PG line is exciting enough (if nothing else, we get some eye candy at the end of the month  ). It goes without saying that, track designer decisions aside, we don't have a lot of control over car-track combinations and the quality of PG lines. Global adjustments to the system are better suited to affect the bulk frequency of PG wins, which IMO are the key concern here. (In particular, I don't think PG surprises are inherently bad, but if they happen every other race they are hardly worthy of being called surprises anymore.)

[alanrotoi]

They will only ever be PG cars, no more driving the Indy on a flat fast track, or enjoying the Vette on a tricky twisty road.

When was the last time these PG cars won without PG? I think never, maybe once in 2001 the first season. They always were and will be PG cars unless you successfully prepare a special track to avoid PG.

[dreadnaut]

Yeah, I think that'd be the best option.

What were you referring to with "that" ?

Maybe track builders can choose between a switch "PG cars on"/ "PG cars off" or +10/-10 but not both systems?

Well, it only adds to my confusion if Daniel answer a question I wrote for Cas 

[Daniel3D]

But again. It is possible to make fast anti-pg tracks. But in the current ZakStunts system they don't fit. And I don't think we should change the system just for this.

We can more actively use the other (mine are unfortunately dormant at the moment, but will be reactivated) competitions to accommodate this experience.

Alan (or anyone), do you have "Genie in the bottle" at hand somewhere?, I can't access. But it's a very nice track to take PG cars for a Non-PG spin..

[Duplode]

When was the last time these PG cars won without PG? I think never, maybe once in 2001 the first season. They always were and will be PG cars unless you successfully prepare a special track to avoid PG.

I believe ZCT230 is the only example in the recent past. A long long time ago, there was also ZCT080, and arguably ZCT084 and ZCT087 as well (those two have significant PG sections, but they don't take most of the lap). I guess many Acura races would also count, but I'm not looking at them since the Acura is a different beast to the other three, as the lack of PG slides means partial PG lines are much more common.

[Daniel3D]

They will only ever be PG cars, no more driving the Indy on a flat fast track, or enjoying the Vette on a tricky twisty road.

When was the last time these PG cars won without PG? I think never, maybe once in 2001 the first season. They always were and will be PG cars unless you successfully prepare a special track to avoid PG.

I don't think there is any use to "prepare a special track to avoid PG" because PG car's are either competitive with PG or not at all. Before "a special track to avoid PG" becomes an option they have already won with PG.

I see (besides exceptional circumstances) no stable way to avoid PG-cars being anything but a PG-car in ZakStunts.