God

[Duplode]

We all agree in that, but I think tolerance is a big part of living in a society and I've learnt to just let people believe what they want as long as they don't try to bash it into other people's mind or interfere directly with my life

I insist: you and Rotoi are talking past BJ, and vice versa, because each side is carrying out the discussion in a different register. I am pretty sure BJ does not go around bashing atheism into the minds of people around him, or at least there is no reason to infer that from what he is saying. If he somehow appears to be doing so here, that is because we are having a frank and rational debate on religion, in neutral ground. Tolerance is okay but it should not, and need not, clash with intellectual honesty.

On the other hand, you have just brought into light an important caveat:

Of course something has to replace religion, but it cannot be just logic and reason. People could drop their religion for something moral oriented, without the need of an almighty being.

Indeed. No amount of science will ever produce a moral principle. From that point of view, secular humanist moral principles are just as arbitrary as religious ones, though of course they have the advantage of not relying on ad hoc or incommunicable premises. For that reason, while I agree with most of the points BJ makes, the task of minimizing the role of religion is, in practice, far more difficult than is suggested by an exhortation like "just stop being religious and exchange it with rational thought".

[BonzaiJoe]

We all agree in that, but I think tolerance is a big part of living in a society and I've learnt to just let people believe what they want as long as they don't try to bash it into other people's mind or interfere directly with my life

I insist: you and Rotoi are talking past BJ, and vice versa, because each side is carrying out the discussion in a different register. I am pretty sure BJ does not go around bashing atheism into the minds of people around him, or at least there is no reason to infer that from what he is saying. If he somehow appears to be doing so here, that is because we are having a frank and rational debate on religion, in neutral ground. Tolerance is okay but it should not, and need not, clash with intellectual honesty.

On the other hand, you have just brought into light an important caveat:

Of course something has to replace religion, but it cannot be just logic and reason. People could drop their religion for something moral oriented, without the need of an almighty being.

Indeed. No amount of science will ever produce a moral principle. From that point of view, secular humanist moral principles are just as arbitrary as religious ones, though of course they have the advantage of not relying on ad hoc or incommunicable premises. For that reason, while I agree with most of the points BJ makes, the task of minimizing the role of religion is, in practice, far more difficult than is suggested by an exhortation like "just stop being religious and exchange it with rational thought".

Well, sure. As I hinted, any answer to "what could replace religion?" except "more religion", will be insufficient in some way. One thing cannot completely replace another thing unless it's identical to the first thing. There will be gaps.

About morals: I think religious morals are mainly inferior to what you call "secular humanist morals", by the standards of utilitarian as well as by liberalistic moral principles.

[CTG]

If there's no God, why should I let my enemies alive? I mean... well... if you have the chance to complete the perfect crime without any legal punishment, would you do it?

[Usrin]

If there's no God

...then CTG is nothing but a ghost! 

[Usrin]

if you have the chance to complete the perfect crime without any legal punishment, would you do it?

Yes, I would. But I couldn't kill anybody. For me, a "perfect crime" would be a robbery, where I'm taking the money of people who don't deserve it. (Robin Hood style.)

[BonzaiJoe]

If there's no God, why should I let my enemies alive? I mean... well... if you have the chance to complete the perfect crime without any legal punishment, would you do it?

Because there's still the police, and there's also my conscience. I don't want to be cruel to others. Of course I'm all for breaking the law in other ways, but that doesn't have much to do with God.

[Chulk]

if you have the chance to complete the perfect crime without any legal punishment, would you do it?

Definitely if it is an act of justice. Some people really deserve it. And I don't mean I'll kill anyone I have a disagreement with, but people who have committed crimes and immoral acts and are not punished because the system is crap due to stupid human rights.
Don't get me wrong, human rights are ok but if you decide to kill people just because you couldn't rob them (which usually happens here in Argentina) and cannot respect a society's rules you have chosen to live outside human rights protection and therefore you deserve to be put to sleep.

[CTG]

if you have the chance to complete the perfect crime without any legal punishment, would you do it?

Definitely if it is an act of justice. Some people really deserve it. And I don't mean I'll kill anyone I have a disagreement with, but people who have committed crimes and immoral acts and are not punished because the system is crap due to stupid human rights.
Don't get me wrong, human rights are ok but if you decide to kill people just because you couldn't rob them (which usually happens here in Argentina) and cannot respect a society's rules you have chosen to live outside human rights protection and therefore you deserve to be put to sleep.

I guess you like Dexter series.

[Chulk]

I guess you like Dexter series.

Not really... I gave it a few tries as many people told me I should feel identified by this same thing I mentioned in my previous post, but didn't like it.
Same thing happened with "The big bang theory" with which I should identify but don't like.

[CTG]

Then maybe "Vengeance Unlimited" with Michael Madsen?

[BonzaiJoe]

cannot respect a society's rules you have chosen to live outside human rights protection and therefore you deserve to be put to sleep.

Doesn't this sound scary to you at all?
What are "society's rules" really?

In Biblical times, you would get brutally killed for working on the sabbath or worshipping the wrong gods. In China you can be killed for selling drugs. In the USA only for killing someone else.