Running STUNTS on modern old hardware.

[Daniel3D]

Alright. I'll try to describe the challenge I've set myself, clear and to the point, in this post.

There are 3 scenarios:
1. You can run STUNTS on old hardware that supports DOS,
2. to new for option 1, to old for option 3.
3. You can run STUNTS on new hardware with an OS + DOSBox.

I have a laptop that falls in scenario 2.

I wanted to make it a DOS computer, but sound is not supported in DOS.
Running an OS and DOSBox is very difficult (1 core 1Ghz processor, 1 gig RAM)

What i try to do is find a very light OS (preferably without a graphical shell) that can load drivers for sound and graphics.
And use a (striped down) version of DOSBox or something similar to have DOS features and interface.

Essentially creating a virtual DOS machine.
So I can play DOS games on a dedicated machine.
I also would like to be able to Dual boot any computer into a fully functioning DOS.

[Daniel3D]

I started this quest several months ago (whenever i had time and an idea to try)
I tried several versions of DOS first. MS-DOS 5, 6 and 7. FreeDOS and another one I forgot the name of.
That didn't work.
I tried versions of windows. XP and DOSBox didn't work well. Older versions of windows are DOS based and have no sound driver.

I am now trying to install a light Linux with DOSBox. But i'm not very familiar with Linux and having issues just installing it.
For a part because most installers aim at CD-ROM and i can only use USB. But I'll get there eventually.

[Daniel3D]

The current plan is.
Hardware -> OS -> Virtual machine (DOSBOX) -> DOS (DOSBox) ..

I think it is technically possible to cut some overhead there.
Like
Hardware -> virtualization layer -> DOS

But as far as I know. That solution does not exist in a way you can use the same hardware.
And I am not at all smart enough to make Virtual DOS 

But I do think that it may be something useful because actual DOS supporting hardware becomes more and more rare.

[llm]

first of all: a tiny linux system will you not get more power for dosbox - if your system is too slow - it would be nearly equaly slow with a tiny linux

search for small tiny linux distros: you wil find serveral pages like this one https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/linux-distro-space/

there are several very small ones that should fit on your system then you can test if it works

try puppylinux or tiny core linux

[Daniel3D]

The system was capable of running Windows 10 at a decent speed. (when it was new and just released)
So there is some power. But if an OS has several background processes running (like Windows), it is noticeable in DOSBox.

I was installing Puppy Linux, but I ran out of daytime. But it booted a live version and had not found an installation option in the process.
I'll try again tonight.

I also got a suggestion on VOGONS.

you could run DOSBOX in DOS with HX DOS Extender.

That sounds silly, but the DOS extender adds sound support that DOSBox can emulate. So that is an option too.

I'll have to see what works, if anything.
It is not necessary for the laptop i have. I may be too weak anyway.
But the laptop I am working on right now is at the end of its usefulness too, and that is powerful enough to serve for many years as DOS machine.

[llm]

The system was capable of running Windows 10 at a decent speed. (when it was new and just released)
So there is some power. But if an OS has several background processes running (like Windows), it is noticeable in DOSBox.

im working on huge 5 years performance criticial project using win10 - i don't know that background processes you talking about

I was installing Puppy Linux, but I ran out of daytime. But it booted a live version and had not found an installation option in the process.
I'll try again tonight.

puppy linux should work, intalled it month ago on a VM

I also got a suggestion on VOGONS.

you could run DOSBOX in DOS with HX DOS Extender.

That sounds silly, but the DOS extender adds sound support that DOSBox can emulate. So that is an option too.

that in whole is a silly idea - you wont win much - and i don't think that the DOS Extender emulates sound hardware, that then gets used by dosbox

[Daniel3D]

Huge Disclaimer **The below statements from me are my view on things, I am not a professional in this field. Nothing I say (or do) should be considered true or wise unless verified by a trained professional.*  <- maybe i should put this in my signature. 

im working on huge 5 years performance criticial project using win10 - i don't know that background processes you talking about

I work with Windows 10 mostly as well. I think it's one of the best Microsoft has ever created. But you need some processing power.

I don't know what Windows 10 does in the background. (not much on this PC, about 5% CPU when idle, but 4x 2,5 GHz is a lot more than just 1GHz.)
(the minimum specs are not enough it seems | Processor:1 GHz or faster ; RAM:1 GB (32-bit) is what I have, but it can't run Windows decently)
When it started to become too heavy for that laptop, I changed it to Windows 10 Ameliorated.
(that cuts away a lot of Windows that you don't need to run applications. It does seriously breach security and break a lot of other things, not for day to day use)
https://bjordanov.com/ameliorated-windows-10-ame/
That still runs ok for automated tasks, and a lot better than Windows did.

puppy linux should work, intalled it month ago on a VM

I think so to. I will try that first.

I also got a suggestion on VOGONS.

you could run DOSBOX in DOS with HX DOS Extender.

That sounds silly, but the DOS extender adds sound support that DOSBox can emulate. So that is an option too.

that in whole is a silly idea - you wont win much - and i don't think that the DOS Extender emulates sound hardware, that then gets used by dosbox

I don't know. They say it does.

The Win32 API Emulation is enhanced by HX GUI and consists of:
DINPUT.DLL: emulates DINPUT.DLL
DSOUND.DLL: emulates DSOUND.DLL
WINMM.DLL: emulates WINMM.DLL
DCIMAN32.DLL: emulates DCIMAN32.DLL
WSOCK32.DLL: emulates WSOCK32.DLL

Thats a part of it.

They also say:

Another interesting SDL application is DOSBox. Running DOSBox in DOS with HX is not that senseless as it might seem at first glance.

https://www.japheth.de/HX.html

It is an interesting notion. If it works, I like the idea. But I really don't know if i gain anything.
This Laptop is a good way to test this.

[KyLiE]

In the past I've had success running Stunts under Windows XP with VDMSound.

[Daniel3D]

I tried vdmsound on W7 and WX combined with ntvdm, I may have worked, but I don't think I got stunts running at all. (It's been awhile)

But thanks. It's a good one to test.

[Duplode]

I second llm in Puppy Linux, or some similarly lightweight Linux distro, being your best bet in making the computer usable. You'll also want to run DOSBox with a relatively low number of cycles (somewhere between 8000 and 12000, I guess). Some of the late 00's dosbox.conf files in the Wiki might be useful.

In the past I've had success running Stunts under Windows XP with VDMSound.

I used to use VDMSound under XP in the early 00's. After a long while, I switched to DOSBox upon realising such a setup slowed down the game (the in-game clock would run about 10% slower than wall-clock time).

[Cas]

There's an intermediate period in which computers were ideal to "NOT run DOS games", ha, ha. I think that computers up to the Pentium 233MHz microprocessors were ideal for DOS because not of the CPUs, but the main boards that supported those CPUs, which were very DOS-friendly, mostly all of them. Beginning with the Pentium IIs, most main boards had on-board sound chips that were not perfectly compatible with Sound Blaster Pro and a memory layout that interfered with software that depended on the first megabyte, such as EMS drivers and some protected mode DOS games, but also games that sampled sound via DMA on that first megabyte. Besides, some boards no longer came with ISA slots, so you weren't able to plug a Sound Blaster AWE 64 or something like that. There were still some more expensive boards that did have good DOS compatibility, but most people didn't use those. This continued towards the Pentium IIIs. Now Pentium IVs, as far as I know, could not be used on any such board, so that's when good DOS compatibility ended. Yet at that point, DOS emulation was already fast enough to run most DOS games fluently. This means that there this intermediate period in which you can't choose native and you can't choose emulated, at least comfortably.

I agree with the guys that in any case, you have a better chance of getting this to work well via emulation with a light OS than natively. Also, in general, laptops have always been less DOS friendly that desktops. If you do get good results in the end, it'd be very interesting to know how you ended up achieving them!

[Daniel3D]

I second llm in Puppy Linux, or some similarly lightweight Linux distro, being your best bet in making the computer usable. You'll also want to run DOSBox with a relatively low number of cycles (somewhere between 8000 and 12000, I guess). Some of the late 00's dosbox.conf files in the Wiki might be useful.

In the past I've had success running Stunts under Windows XP with VDMSound.

I used to use VDMSound under XP in the early 00's. After a long while, I switched to DOSBox upon realising such a setup slowed down the game (the in-game clock would run about 10% slower than wall-clock time).

It? a pain to get something working. Mostly because my inexperience. I could not get any linux working beyond a live version. I have to do everything through USB and most linux installers are aimed at CD-rom. Keep running into problems.

I had a working Freedos so when i have time. Hopefully sometime in the next 4 days. I am going to try,
Freedos + HX DOS extender + vdmsound.
Stunts does run on Freedos 1.3 (verified on youtube, the most trustworthy source) But the sound card is not supported.
I hope that the dos extender is enough to run vdmsound. That woukld be the best case scenario.

Hardware -> DOS -> soundemulation through extender -> Stunts
That is as close to native DOS as i can get I think.

[dreadnaut]

This pocket 386 machine with USB drive support sounds like the perfect portable Stunts machine:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/06/the-ultimate-windows-3-1-laptop-sellers-behind-book-8088-are-back-with-pocket-386/

(That keyboard though 🤔)

[Frieshansen]

Looks very interesting - it even has two ISA buses to the outside. Never heard of this CPU (M6117C) before - looks also interesting.

[Matei]

Looks like Pandora.

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=skunks.gausen.367419273

But for $200 I recently bought 2 good laptops and right now I use a netbook which I bought in 2011 for a little over $200 and which runs Stunts in DosBOX just fine. It also plays *.webm videos from y****be at 1280x720 perfectly.

https://www.linux-netbook.com/asus-eee-pc-r011px/

There's also DOSEMU:

https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4257.msg92988#msg92988

You'll have to wait a little while for the new version of my game because I'm working on something else right now, btw.

[edit]
http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=stunts
[/edit]