Lap counting in Le Stunts races

[Duplode]

Running Le Stunts races with a live broadcast (see the videos for Fortitude and Texarkana -- thanks @Erik Barros!) was an interesting experience that has provided food for thought about live racing formats. In this post, I'll talk about (and give my own spin to) one specific matter that concerns how we figure out results in the Le Stunts format.

The familiar Le Stunts rules specify that pipsqueaks have to drive an 8 minutes long replay and post it to the Forum within 12 minutes. Results are then defined by the number of completed laps, with track position at 8:00 as the tiebreaker. This way of assigning the results is as simple as it gets for the drivers (save your replay when the game clock gets to 8:00 and you're good to go). However, an outcome which depends on track position in an incomplete lap can be a little confusing to live spectators. Also, things sometimes get tricky for the race stewards as well, as small margins might require a photo finish for confirming the results.

That being so, there's a decent case for, instead of relying on track position at 8:00, only counting full laps. Results would be according to the number of completed laps and, as the tiebreaker, the game time when the final lap is completed. Now, that can be done in a few different ways. I'll say a few words about three of them, the third one being my preferred approach.

To begin with, we might simply rewind to the last lap before 8:00, checking lap count and finish time at that point. This is the simplest option, as the driver doesn't need to do anything different than under the traditional rules. However, I believe this approach has a serious flaw: the driving between the end of the final lap and the 8:00 mark no longer actually count for the results. That goes against the basic concept of the Le Stunts format, in which everyone is supposed to race for 8:00 of game time. Furthermore, discarding some of what has been driven can lead to awkward corner cases. Consider a track with laptimes around 1:00, and a driver who, approaching the end of their race, completes a lap at 7:02. The driver is now suddenly pressed into a quick decision on whether to make a mad dash to finish an extra lap in 58 seconds.

The obvious alternative, then, is to ask drivers to cross the finish line after 8:00. This approach, which mirrors the rules of endurance races, makes everyone drive at least 8:00 and gets rid of dead time in replays. The corner case problem, however, remains in a different guise. A driver who crosses the line at 7:59 now must complete one extra full lap, substantially increasing their risk of having trouble with the 12 minutes deadline. Meanwhile, there are no such concerns for someone who completes a lap at 8:01.

How, then, to require the line to be crossed after 8:00 while keeping things equitable? The way out that I can see is to add tolerance to the deadline to account for the final lap. In order to avoid giving everyone lots of extra slack, the tolerance should grow with how much game time each driver actually uses to complete the final lap. That can be done without resorting to calculators by using a table like this one:

In-game finish time    Deadline
-------------------    --------
8:00.00 -- 8:19.95     12:30
8:20.00 -- 8:39.95     13:00
8:40.00 -- 8:59.95     13:30
9:00.00 -- 9:19.95     14:00
9:20.00 -- 9:39.95     14:30
9:40.00 -- 9:59.95     15:00

(Side note: this approach might also be useful for alternative formats with a fixed number of laps.)

For instance, in a race which officially starts at 18:25:15, someone who completes the final lap at 8:46 on the game clock would have until 18:38:45 (thirteen and a half minutes later) to post their replay.

Keeping track of such adaptable deadlines would in principle be a little harder for drivers. In practice, though, it should be enough for pipsqueaks to set a 12-minute countdown like we currently do, knowing things will most likely be okay as long as you get to 8:00 in game with 1 or 2 minutes remaining out of the initial 12. (Also note that the adaptable deadlines are never stricter than the simple 8-in-12 rule.) As for the result checking process, figuring out the deadline from the finish time would be required; this extra step, however, looks like a fairly straightforward thing to do.

In summary: while counting only full laps is an attractive proposition, it doesn't come for free, requring some sort of compromise: be it going against the spirit of the format by embracing drives shorter than 8:00, tolerating potential unfairness in how much each pipsqueak is required to drive, or handling a little additional complexity brought by adaptable deadlines. In any case, I would be happy with the extra-lap-plus-adaptable-deadlines rule, and consider it a slight improvement over the status quo.

[dreadnaut]

That being so, there's a decent case for

Feels a bit light as a case, to be fair, as we've had one photo finish in several years

I haven't had the chance to be on one of the live streams (away again last week-end ), how does that play out from a spectator point of view? I'm not sure I understand how varying the deadline would make the result more legible and immediate, can you clarify?

[Duplode]

I'm not sure I understand how varying the deadline would make the result more legible and immediate, can you clarify?

The increased legibility would come from no longer having to compare track positions: by only counting full laps, everyone crosses the line at the same place, and one only needs to look at the lap count and time at finish as shown in the game clock. The varying deadlines would be an extra tweak to deal with the side effects of the change -- without it, the drawbacks of the simpler implementations are IMO enough to cancel out any gains.

On the broader point about how it plays out, the general feeling seems to be that the Le Stunts format isn't necessarily the most natural fit to live broadcasting, in particular because the crash recovery rewinds scramble the timelines quite a bit. Personally, I don't see that as a major problem (opinions may vary, though!); still, it might be worth looking for ways to tighten the format a bit as long as they don't get too cumbersome.

[dreadnaut]

by only counting full laps, everyone crosses the line at the same place, and one only needs to look at the lap count and time at finish as shown in the game clock

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I think you explained quite well how it's meant to work in the first message, the bit I'm not sure about is how someone watching the live stream would see the result. My first impression is that viewers would have to count laps manually, and for each pipsqueak, because the car streams are out of sync. That doesn't sound easier than what we have today, so I think I'm missing something 🤔

Re live-broadcasting, what is the priority? The racing experience, or the viewing experience? (Also, would be interesting to hear from the audience!)

[Erik Barros]

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone involved directly or indirectly with the broadcasts.

I apologize @Duplode if I'm stealing your topic to explain some things I'd like to share about how far we've come and how far I think it's interesting to go.

About how far we've come:

- From the beginning I was thinking about a way that would be easy to execute, I think this has already been achieved, it is possible for players to share the dosbox screen without needing to log in to a platform. It works on different operating systems and even in browsers that are not chromium based. On the receiving side, it's very simple too, I just use OBS Studio and I can transmit to any platform.

- I already had an idea that on the spectator's side it would be chaotic to see several players using RH on the same screen and out of sync and without any explicit rules. But I needed a way to validate that everything would work and run the tests (once again, thanks everyone).

- It was interesting to see a part of LeStunts that no one had seen until then, we always have access to the finished replays, it was a really fun experience.

About where we can go:

- My opinion/intention was never to modify or replace the LeStunts format, I think it works very well as intended. I see that we had a regular racing calendar and I think that should continue, without the broadcast.

- I think we can think of a new format that would strike a balance between being fun for those who are playing and those who are watching. I think the main points for it to work are to have a narrator to give guidance on how everything is happening and to be a competition that is easy to identify who is winning, also so as not to make the narrator's life complicated by having to count laps of multiple players.

- I have a suggestion. We run on a track and try to get the best time possible within a time limit (20 to 30 minutes, maybe). Some variables can give a more dramatic characteristic; not allowing RH. Do not set a time limit, limit the number of attempts (Or both  ). The narrator can monitor when the player sets a highscore easily (The player leaves it on the highscore screen for a few seconds). There would be no need for synchronization between players, if there is an adequate time limit it is possible for the player to breathe a little between attempts (Or not  ).

- I have an idea, but this one might be more frustrating. Running on a difficult track, whoever manages to finish the track first wins or running several laps on whoever stays on the track without breaking wins.

- Anyway, anyone in the community who wants to organize a race (regardless of the rules) and wants to broadcast it, can count on me. Transmitting or guiding how to do it.

- Talking a little about platforms, I broadcast to YouTube to take advantage of the existing channel but I'm not sure if it's the best way, I think the broadcasts are to attract some attention to the game and the community, it could be Twitch or any other. I also plan to download these videos to keep a copy but I worry about the longevity of this content, It's very frustrating to find old stunts content and the links are broken and the content is lost.

[Duplode]

the bit I'm not sure about is how someone watching the live stream would see the result. My first impression is that viewers would have to count laps manually, and for each pipsqueak, because the car streams are out of sync.

Lap counts are indeed the main thing to keep track of for a spectator of a Le Stunts race. Making that easier to do would probably require us to rely on a commentator (in a live broadcast) and captions (in post-edition) -- not sure about other options to address that within the limits of the format.

The full laps issue I was talking about is a secondary, largely separate matter, which nonetheless might be of some relevance when it comes to making results clearer for spectators. When following battles in the final part of a race, a target time is perhaps easier to convey and grasp than an arbitrary target position somewhere on the track. Furthermore, in the post-race, full lap results would mean we'd no longer need an annotated track map to concisely report the results.

Re live-broadcasting, what is the priority? The racing experience, or the viewing experience?

My personal take: racing experience comes first, but that need not stop us from going for low-hanging fruit that makes races easier to watch. (Also, experimenting with additional formats that are potentially more TV-friendly, as in @Erik Barros 's suggestions above, is well worth doing!)

[dreadnaut]

Also, experimenting with additional formats that are potentially more TV-friendly, as in @Erik Barros 's suggestions above, is well worth doing!

Live races after all can have (and have had) different rules. Things can evolve event by event, we don't need to get something right on a planning board 👍