Stunts MOBILE? J2ME version of STUNTS is coming?

[netsoftware]

Hi, guys!

We have some plans about j2me game inspired by Stunts. So, you are real fans of this crazy game, and we want to ask you about what does it means for you... this word STUNTS... what does it mean in gameplay, in physics, in cars, in tracks and in editor...  does editor is important part of this game... is it base for community to start or just another editor tool not really needed? So help us please, if you have a time...

Thanks a lot!


--
Nick,
NETSOFTWARE.

[Krys TOFF]

Most important part of the game (for me) are : crazy physics and some bugs (loopcut, powergear, dual-way switching, ...), the editor and the possibility to exchange tracks created by the editor (by MMS/SMS for example for a modile phone version).

This track exchange part possibility through wi-fi (apart from local DS connection) is what is missing in DS version of TrackMania. A Stunts-inspired game for mobile phone (in Java I suppose) is a good idea, if tricks like loopcut and some part of powergear possibilities are implemented too.

Promising idea anyway, I support it.

[netsoftware]

Hi, Krys!

Most important part of the game (for me) are : crazy physics and some bugs (loopcut, powergear, dual-way switching, ...), the editor and the possibility to exchange tracks created by the editor (by MMS/SMS for example for a modile phone version).

This track exchange part possibility through wi-fi (apart from local DS connection) is what is missing in DS version of TrackMania. A Stunts-inspired game for mobile phone (in Java I suppose) is a good idea, if tricks like loopcut and some part of powergear possibilities are implemented too.

Promising idea anyway, I support it.

About crazy physics - we want it too... 'couse this is a really perfect thing in this game! %)

But about "bugs", I've got some questions...
1) loopcut
2) powergear
3) dual-way switching
can you describe them as more as it possible... pls... couse  I'm not so big fan of this game as you are, and I don't know all bugs and their names and how can I do them...

And if there is another bugs - can you describe them too... it's very important for us... please...


Of cource we will try to make some kind of editor, but for mobile phone it's very hard to do something great... I think you understand what I mean... but we will try... and about  exchange tracks by MMS/SMS now I can say it's impossible... may be we can make some kind of online game server where all maps can be uploaded/downloaded... but I don't know will it be possible or not... couse all depends on sales and incomes...  

Also, may be it's will be possible to make map on PC VERSION OF EDITOR and then upload it to online server and then anyone can download it by mobile phone by simple ingame menu...


Thanks for find this idea promising...



--
Nick,
NETSOFTWARE.

[BonzaiJoe]

Hi!

To me, the track editor is what has given Stunts its longevity. It stretches the great gameplay into infinite entertainment. What makes the game so good is the freedom of it. Unlike most other games, you are not at all confined to the road. This means the possibilities of the game are never exhausted, and it's just not a matter of learning a skill to perfection, it is also a matter of being creative when you race!
The ability to save replays is also essential, and I agree with Krys that the crazy physics work very well and the bugs give extra spice (although I could live without loopcuts and magic carpets)

Loopcut: when you drive directly THROUGH a loop and survive because of a bug.

Magic Carpet: when the car spontaneously takes off from the ground and flies a short way, thereby gaining speed.

Power gear: a bug that allows some cars, when driving at a high speed, to enter a state where you go at top speed and don't lose any speed by driving on the grass. This gives a whole new aspect to shortcuts.

Dual-way switching: an error that allows you to switch from one path to another without getting penalty time. This means you can go directly from the beginning of one path to the end of another (before the paths rejoin) without getting penalty time.

[netsoftware]

Hi, BonzaiJoe!

To me, the track editor is what has given Stunts its longevity.
It stretches the great gameplay into infinite entertainment.

So, as I say... if it will be possible - we try to make something on mobile... now our game is only on the stage of discussion so a lot of things is just a theory and ideas...

What makes the game so good is the freedom of it. Unlike most
other games, you are not at all confined to the road. This means
the possibilities of the game are never exhausted, and it's just
not a matter of learning a skill to perfection, it is also a
matter of being creative when you race!

Ahaaa... there is important note... "being creative when you race!" is a key!

The ability to save replays is also essential,

Replays is important... OK... we will think...

and I agree with Krys that the crazy physics
work very well and the bugs give extra spice
(although I could live without loopcuts and magic carpets)

Loopcut: when you drive directly THROUGH a loop and survive because of a bug.

Magic Carpet: when the car spontaneously takes off from the ground and flies a short way, thereby gaining speed.

Power gear: a bug that allows some cars, when driving at a high speed, to enter a state where you go at top speed and don't lose any speed by driving on the grass. This gives a whole new aspect to shortcuts.

Dual-way switching: an error that allows you to switch from one path to another without getting penalty time. This means you can go directly from the beginning of one path to the end of another (before the paths rejoin) without getting penalty time.

Thanks a lot for descriptions... also I find this descriptions at WIKI about Stunts tricks/bugs:

Dual-way switching

A controversial kind of shortcut that exploits a programming oversight in Stunts' penalty time system. On tracks where the road splits, it is possible to leave one of the paths and re-enter the track through any point of the other one without penalty time, provided at least one track element is crossed before the paths rejoin. Tracks with multiple paths usually either are designed in a way to prevent dual-way switching or explicitly exploit them to make alternative racing lines available.

Is it a nessesery needed to be a bug? May be there is easy to give full freedom of choose your way to the driver... not needed to make a circles, just have fun... make tricks and get scores or something...

Fast Grass

Fast grass is the grass around a chicane. This grass is called fast because, due to a game bug, it functions as road although it looks like grass. You can thus drive as fast on the grass around a chicane as you can on the chicane road or any other road. Due to this property, chicanes are useful resources to track designers for creating alternative racing lines.

Hahaaa... very funny... so it's just a kind of surface with incorrect physics - and skilled pipsqueaks know how to use it right, yes?

Fence Sliding

An advanced trick, which allows you to navigate better in power gear. You use the edge-of-map fence to change direction by sliding along it. You can drive into the fence, keeping power gear, and then leave it when you've reached the right place. It is possible to fence-slide across water, which makes for surprising shortcuts on some tracks. This trick was first used on ZCT10 in January 2002.

Like a rocketjump in Quake 1... when everyone think you'll die - but you jump to higher place... here you just slide thrue water...

Magic Carpet

This is the expression used for when your car makes a spontaneous jump from flat ground. Magic Carpets are an unpredictable wildcard in competition races, as they usually allow the pipsqueak to save time by keeping a higher speed, sometimes even reaching or keeping power gear where it would not otherwise be possible. The random nature of magic carpets makes them hard to use and an unpredictability factor, sometimes allowing weaker pipsqueaks to beat stronger pipsqueaks.

So... it's may be can be replaced by something like nitro? Currently, there is a random nature can be used as a power of this nitro... is it? Or I mizzunderstud something?

Loopcut

A category of tricks. In most cases, you lose time if you go through a loop the ordinary way. Therefore, in most cases, it is a good idea to go through the loop in a different, shorter and faster way. This is called "cutting" the loop, and has become a word: loopcut/loopcutting. It can be done in several different ways.

As I say before, may be there is easy to give full freedom of choose tricks to do... not needed to make all tricks, jumps, just have fun?

Power Gear

Some cars in stunts have the ability to reach a so-called power gear or 6th gear. This usually happens while driving in the last official gear with a high RPM, and doing a jump. Some cars can reach it from any speed, when driving on a loop, and shifting to the last gear.
6th gear allows cars to go a lot faster than the given maximum speed and more importantly not even slow down on grass, when driving in 6th gear. These are: Porsche March INDY, Ferrari GTO, Corvette ZR1 and Acura NSX.
For all four cars, power gear also allows the Fence Sliding trick on water.
Finding the 6th gear spots on a competition track is the key to victory. 6th gear was officially confirmed by Stunts lead programmer Kevin Pickell as a programming bug.

As I understand it's all impossible with automatic transmission? Is it?

Helicopter trick
Advanced trick of Acura NSX. When Acura is in powergear, a certain kind of hard steering forces the car to make a huge bug jump with rotation and after landing it keeps quite high speed. It can be very useful for cutting sharp corners. Angle of rotation can be various. One of the most known helicopter tricks was completed by CTG at ZCT 55. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-i71tJLshk

It's just a very complex physics bug... but when I saw it on the video... i've enjoy it so much... as I want to do it myself... but...





Thanks...




--
Nick,
NETSOFTWARE.

[Krys TOFF]

Another thing that is missing in Stunts and that may be implemented : underground racing (tunnels under hills) and tunnel corners. Only straight tunnels are in Stunts and I think tunnel corners (both sharp and long) would be interesting.

The ability to save replays is also essential,

Replays is important... OK... we will think...

Stunts replays just store keys pressed and game engine re-calculates the race when you "see" the replay. That's why replays are such small files. Only that same kind of replay can be technically used on mobile phones I think.

Dual-way switching
A controversial kind of shortcut that exploits a programming oversight in Stunts' penalty time system. On tracks where the road splits, it is possible to leave one of the paths and re-enter the track through any point of the other one without penalty time, provided at least one track element is crossed before the paths rejoin. Tracks with multiple paths usually either are designed in a way to prevent dual-way switching or explicitly exploit them to make alternative racing lines available.

Is it a nessesery needed to be a bug? May be there is easy to give full freedom of choose your way to the driver... not needed to make a circles, just have fun... make tricks and get scores or something...

Sure, it can be a simple game engine decision not to give penalty when doing shortcuts. But in this case, to avoid too big shortcuts that may "kill" the spirit of the race, you'll need to add checkpoint system I think. Then, it's up to the track designer to decide where checpoints are properly placed to allow (or not) the shortcuts.
In order to bring more interest in race "strategy", best would be to be forced to go through each checkpoint, but not in a defined order.

Magic Carpet
This is the expression used for when your car makes a spontaneous jump from flat ground. Magic Carpets are an unpredictable wildcard in competition races, as they usually allow the pipsqueak to save time by keeping a higher speed, sometimes even reaching or keeping power gear where it would not otherwise be possible. The random nature of magic carpets makes them hard to use and an unpredictability factor, sometimes allowing weaker pipsqueaks to beat stronger pipsqueaks.

So... it's may be can be replaced by something like nitro? Currently, there is a random nature can be used as a power of this nitro... is it? Or I mizzunderstud something?

Nitro... Mmmm, I'm just thinking of FlatOut games then where making other pipsqueaks crash gives you nitro. An idea may be that doing some Stunts tricks will be rewarded with some short nitro boost. Quite different from original Stunts, yet interesting possibility : will the pipsqueak cut the loop to gain speed, or will he race the loop (then loose soem time) and be rewarded by a nitro boost that will compensate the time spent in the loop.
Even more interesting regarding track designing : if the part of the track after the loop is fast, then both options (cut to save time or race the loop and use nitro just after it) should be equivalent. But if you put a checkpoint and then a sharp 180° turn after the loop, then it's better to race the loop and keep the nitro boost for a later part of the track where it will be more efficient. This should bring some strategy in racing. I like it.

Loopcut
A category of tricks. In most cases, you lose time if you go through a loop the ordinary way. Therefore, in most cases, it is a good idea to go through the loop in a different, shorter and faster way. This is called "cutting" the loop, and has become a word: loopcut/loopcutting. It can be done in several different ways.

As I say before, may be there is easy to give full freedom of choose tricks to do... not needed to make all tricks, jumps, just have fun?

Exactly. And, combined with the idea I just exposed before, there can also be a possibility to implement a pure Stunt racing : race as long as a specific limited time (chosen by track designer) and reach the finish line whenever you want before this delay. Goal then would be to get the max amount of "points" by doing Stunts figures. Probably more difficult to implement apart from the "simply" racing game, but an idea to think about maybe.

Power Gear
Some cars in stunts have the ability to reach a so-called power gear or 6th gear. This usually happens while driving in the last official gear with a high RPM, and doing a jump. Some cars can reach it from any speed, when driving on a loop, and shifting to the last gear.
6th gear allows cars to go a lot faster than the given maximum speed and more importantly not even slow down on grass, when driving in 6th gear. These are: Porsche March INDY, Ferrari GTO, Corvette ZR1 and Acura NSX.
For all four cars, power gear also allows the Fence Sliding trick on water.
Finding the 6th gear spots on a competition track is the key to victory. 6th gear was officially confirmed by Stunts lead programmer Kevin Pickell as a programming bug.

As I understand it's all impossible with automatic transmission? Is it?

These cars can also reach powergear with automatic transmission, but it's harder to do. Anyway, if a nitro system is implemented I suppose this powergear "bug" will not be implemented...

[Krys TOFF]

For info, netsoftware website is there : http://www.netsoftwaregames.com/ (english and russian).
It seems you're inspired by DOS games of the 90's, your Bunker 3D and Laboratory 3D games remind me a lot the originial Wolfenstein 3D/Spear of Destiny games.

[BonzaiJoe]

About loopcuts: sure you can cut a loop in several ways that just show good racing skills and aren't bugs. The problem is when you go under the loop. This is clearly a bug (because it makes absolutely no sense even within Stunts physics), and it deteriorates gameplay because it requires no particular skill, only luck and patience. The same goes for slalom block cutting and magic carpets.

[Duplode]

Hello Nick, it's great to know Stunts keeps inspiring game designers around the world!

As for my suggestions, Krys and Bonzai Joe have covered most essentials: an editor (even if a PC one), replay saving (storing the keystrokes may be a good solution for your case too) are very important, and freedom to cut racing elements (as well as freedom in track design) are crucial. The more random bugs, like go-through loopcuts (or slalom blocks) and random Magic Carpets are not so important (it would be probably very hard to implement them on purpose in a convincing manner). Krys' main suggestions about gameplay are cool too. If I understood them correctly, they mean:

• Trackmania-like checkpoints (that might need to be crossed in a fixed order or not)
• A nitro system comparable to the "Special" gauge in the Tony Hawk's pro Skater series, where you accumulate boost by completing loops, speeding through slaloms, long ramp-to-ramp transfers, etc. The main difference would be that one would be able to spend the boost wherever one wishes to - it might be cool/more challenging if the boost activated by itself after a certain limit (as sort of happens in THPS), so one cannot store it forever.

As for powergear, I think it could be a nice addition if some cars would lock-in at top speed after taking some jumps/loops at high speed. Not all cars would need to have powergear, and the ones which do have it might be penalized by a reduction in the rate of regular boost increase for "balance".

[netsoftware]

Hi, everybody!

Thanks for responses! It's nice you're keep help us with this game idea...

For info, netsoftware website is there : http://www.netsoftwaregames.com/ (english and russian).
It seems you're inspired by DOS games of the 90's, your Bunker 3D and Laboratory 3D games remind me a lot the originial Wolfenstein 3D/Spear of Destiny games.

Yes it is, but belive me - it's a new games with different storyline and totally redesigned for mobiles... If you intertested for more, you can see some videos of our games at our youtube channel:  http://www.youtube.com/netsoftware/  Hope you enjoy watchin' em... as we enjoy developing em...

About loopcuts: sure you can cut a loop in several ways that just show good racing skills and aren't bugs. The problem is when you go under the loop. This is clearly a bug (because it makes absolutely no sense even within Stunts physics), and it deteriorates gameplay because it requires no particular skill, only luck and patience. The same goes for slalom block cutting and magic carpets.

So, as I say, currently for me - there is no good idea to make some special bugs in a gameplay - even if it's very fun!
There is a lot of other games where you need only luck and patience... as Dice or something... so If we make stunts styled game, I hope we will no made this distructive elements of a gameplay...

Hello Nick, it's great to know Stunts keeps inspiring game designers around the world!

Can say only for me... but... Yes! It is! %)

As for my suggestions, Krys and Bonzai Joe have covered most essentials: an editor (even if a PC one), replay saving (storing the keystrokes may be a good solution for your case too) are very important, and freedom to cut racing elements (as well as freedom in track design) are crucial.

So here we have some key elements as you say:
1) map editor
2) replay saving
3) freedom to cut racing elements
aslo i've added:
4) crazy physics (impossible is possible )

Yes?

The more random bugs, like go-through loopcuts (or slalom blocks) and random Magic Carpets are not so important (it would be probably very hard to implement them on purpose in a convincing manner).

OK... OK... just begin to understand it... 

Krys' main suggestions about gameplay are cool too. If I understood them correctly, they mean:

• Trackmania-like checkpoints (that might need to be crossed in a fixed order or not)
• A nitro system comparable to the "Special" gauge in the Tony Hawk's pro Skater series, where you accumulate boost by completing loops, speeding through slaloms, long ramp-to-ramp transfers, etc. The main difference would be that one would be able to spend the boost wherever one wishes to - it might be cool/more challenging if the boost activated by itself after a certain limit (as sort of happens in THPS), so one cannot store it forever.

As for powergear, I think it could be a nice addition if some cars would lock-in at top speed after taking some jumps/loops at high speed. Not all cars would need to have powergear, and the ones which do have it might be penalized by a reduction in the rate of regular boost increase for "balance".

About trackmania-like checkpoints, what do you mean currently? You like it? Do you think it's good idea for used in Stunts?
In previus post - I proposed to leave total freedom for player... you even not needed to "checkpoint" anything to win... just a freeride... freefly... freejump... freeslide...     But may be TM Checkpoints is a goo idea for one of game modes?


About "nitro" you accumulate boost by completing tricks and spend it:
1) spend the boost by press X button...
2) or automaticly by getting MAX LEVEL OF NITRO
(you think it's more challenging and cool... if the boost activated by itself after a certain limit and can't store forever).

Did I understand you well? You mean currently this?


And as for POWERGEAR... there is a good proposition about balance... but there is a mobile control system and now I'm not sure how we done it... For some reason POWERGEAR may be just a nessesery part of control, not a trick... Becouse on mobile we have no keyboard or wheel... we have buttons... not always easy to press... and... becouse of this automatical speed-keeping options may be included by default.

[netsoftware]

Hi!

Heeey... did anybody alive?
We need just a little more help... pls...


--
Nick.

[Krys TOFF]

So here we have some key elements as you say:
1) map editor
2) replay saving
3) freedom to cut racing elements
aslo i've added:
4) crazy physics (impossible is possible )

Yes?

Yes.
Add also the multi-lap possibility (for "round" tracks only of course), I'd like to have that. Actually, when we want multi-lap tracks in Stunts we have to use a dual-way and specify the race rules, but the game engines consider valid a single lap.

About trackmania-like checkpoints, what do you mean currently? You like it? Do you think it's good idea for used in Stunts?
In previus post - I proposed to leave total freedom for player... you even not needed to "checkpoint" anything to win... just a freeride... freefly... freejump... freeslide...     But may be TM Checkpoints is a goo idea for one of game modes?

Best would be to have CP (checkpoint) possibility, but optionnal. That is, no CP required to make the track valid : just a start and a finish would be required. They could be the same place ("round" track), or different places (one-way track).
Then, adding CP is the choice of the track designer, in order to allow (or not) big shortcuts.
Well, it's my own opinion only.

About "nitro" you accumulate boost by completing tricks and spend it:
1) spend the boost by press X button...
2) or automaticly by getting MAX LEVEL OF NITRO
(you think it's more challenging and cool... if the boost activated by itself after a certain limit and can't store forever).

Did I understand you well? You mean currently this?

I don't know what Duplode meant, but automatic turbo boost when "nitro box" is full will bring limitations in track designing I think. How to take properly a sharp corner if turbo can't be stopped until nitro box is empty ?

[BonzaiJoe]

You might want to make the handling easier for the mobile phone version, or people's arms will suffer.

But the next question is: what about replay handling?

[Krys TOFF]

But the next question is: what about replay handling?

No replay handling I think. Just a replay viewing.

[Mark L. Rivers]

So... only NORH races!