B teams

[Duplode]

First, a little background: In last year's pre-season, there was some discussion about increasing team sizes, given that most teams were at or over the 4-member limit -- and, with Slowdrive having recruited a fourth pipsqueak, all teams are now in such a situation. The proposal didn't succeed, with the advice to teams being to instead lean on the distinction between, so to speak, unofficial members (as many pipsqueaks as desired racing together) and official ones (at most four people registered and scoring points for the team).

Thanks to @Overdrijf , though, I have realised there's an effective compromise solution right under our noses, one which can be implemented right now, under the current rules: B teams! If, for instance, Team Orion were above the size limit and had four of their pipsqueaks already active in the season, the extra members could be registered as Orion II (or The Belt, et cetera). Using B teams, I believe, allows us to steer clear of the potential problems with both a team size increase and an inflexible limit:

• Extra members now are recognised and shown on the scoreboard as being part of a team, which is much more welcoming and avoids any harsh feeling of exclusion.
• The scoreboard team affiliations now correctly show that the extra pipsqueaks aren't actually racing alone, making things a little more transparent.
• The official size limit keeps being 4, so there's no risk of affecting the competitive balance.
• There's no need for the rule book to continuously play catch-up with the trends, as a size increase might induce. (For instance, if we were to increase the limit to 5, it's not unlikely that the teams would take up the opportunity and expand, leading us to restart the discussion, but now about increasing it to 6).

As I mentioned above, it should be possible to start using B teams right now, as soon as the circumstances call for them. The only slight tweak to the procedures we'd need to do is waiving the minimum size of 2 restriction for B teams (and only B teams), as they are an extension of the main team, and it doesn't really make sense to allow 6-member teams to use them but not 5-member ones. A feature that would be nice to have but isn't essential is displaying B team status on the site, perhaps through a link between the team profiles in the database, or even just a notes field in the profiles that allows us to mention the affiliation.

[CTG]

https://youtu.be/tS35tbktcLo?si=pTv8o0kHmK4h3dnt

Sorry, I couldn't miss it.

[Duplode]

https://youtu.be/tS35tbktcLo?si=pTv8o0kHmK4h3dnt

See, they also agree that B teams don't need a lower size limit 

[Spoonboy]

https://youtu.be/ZOdn3D4xfs4?si=jfrc-LfLGGHr1B0x

"You may be on B-Squad, but you're the B-Squad *leader*!" 

[alanrotoi]

We almost did it in meganium in the early days. It looks a good idea. There are pipsqueaks without team yet and we know it helps a lot.

[Shoegazing Leo]

Will a Slowdrive B team be called Mojaudi 3?

[Duplode]

Will a Slowdrive B team be called Mojaudi 3?

And for Rolling Stunts, The Beetles?

[Shoegazing Leo]

Will a Slowdrive B team be called Mojaudi 3?

And for Rolling Stunts, The Beetles?

The Kinskids

[Cas]

When I used to play OGame, there was a concept similar to that of B Teams. In Spanish speaking universes, we called it "canteras", but I figure English speaking ones must have had the same thing with some other name. It allowed powerful alliances (teams) to admit unskilled newcomers without losing their prestige and keep them in these B Teams where they could gain skills. Once they became strong, they could move to the primary.

[Duplode]

@Cas Indeed, B teams can be made into "canteras" ("academies" or "school teams" are okay equivalents, I think). The use I had primarily in mind for them, though, stems from different assumptions, even if some of the goals are the same.

Instead of preparing newbies for the main squad while keeping a prestige-based separation, a team might wish to grant full trust to its new recruits from the start by bringing them directly into the main squad. The purpose of the B team, then, would be freeing up places in the main squad, by accommodating members on long breaks or light racing schedules (without having to kick them from the team, or to rely on an ambiguous "unregistered member" status).

Having "cantera" B teams is, in principle, a possibility in our competition as well. To prevent the relationship between the squads from freezing into a permanent hierarchy, though, I feel it would make sense to have some kind of time limit -- for instance, a rule specifying that a school team (defined as a B team with a large enough share of newbies) should become independent by the end of the season.

[dreadnaut]

I like the idea of secondary teams!

Would you see them gaining points as normal? Could there be some kind of "balancing", so that strong pipsqueak who often finish third-in-the-team would move from the primary to the secondary team, where their points would be accounted for?

[Duplode]

Could there be some kind of "balancing", so that strong pipsqueak who often finish third-in-the-team would move from the primary to the secondary team, where their points would be accounted for?

Not too sure on how I feel about such dynamics, but perhaps it could be an option if a team finds that a sensible thing to do. This arrangement might also arise in a different manner, if a team chooses to recruit into the B team and then decides to send a pro to give them some company. Interestingly, if the "third" pipsqueak has a companion or two within a B team of that kind, the B team might be emboldened to become independent!

Would you see them gaining points as normal?

I think so, though the implications would be different depending on what the B teams that actually arise will look like. Considering the three kinds of B teams we have mentioned so far: A "squad rotation" B team would likely have its season scoreboard exploits limited due to not racing with its full roster 100% of the time. A "cantera" B team might offer interesting competition below the top of the team scoreboard. It is only the "balancing" B teams, I think, whose performance might raise a few eyebrows.

[Mortimer Macmire]

Hi guys, I was asked by Alan to give my thoughts about this topic. So here it is.

I think it's a good idea to implement B-Teams (although academy teams sounds a little better if you ask me  ) in any shape or order.

Of course I only read this post so I don't know if this is already brought up, but isn't it possible to use the rating from the Folyami Project? So if you have a "team" of 6 people the four highest rated pipsqueaks of that team can score for the a-team and the other two score for the b-team.

I think it creates a pretty cool dynamic where both teams work together like one team. Hopefully (if I'm correct) it will make a natural flow between pipsqueaks that are new or inactive for a longer time and the better pipsqueaks over the run of a season. It also gives the newbies a chance to fight for a place in the main line-up (first four) and really good pipsqueaks that come back after a longer time of inactivity (and have lost rating points because of that) have an extra goal to get back into that main line-up.

Also the better pipsqueaks will be pushed to get even better if one of the b-team members threatens to take over their spot in the main line-up.

And last but not least, it might ensure the all a-teams preform at their best because the four best pipsqueaks (or most active) are competing every race. I guess this will even out the playing field more between the teams.

The teams that don't have a b-team won't feel any negative side effect of this idea because they will drive with the main line-up anyway.

I hope I explained what I mean well enough. Of course I don't know if it's even possible taking in the current rulebook. And I also don't know if it is talked about before. But it seems like a cool idea to me.

Ps. It's really cool that the word race(rs) is automatically changed into pipsqueaks  !

[Cas]

I agree it's a very good idea and I vouch for it too   Reading about this and the comments from you guys makes me think of another idea that might be good... perhaps. It's different, so I'll just mention it here, but I'll create another thread to discuss it further... It's about different tournaments and events issuing points or other benefits to pipsqueaks that participate or get good marks in other tournaments and events. Going right ahead to create the thread...

[Duplode]

Hi Mortimer, welcome to the Forum! 

Of course I only read this post so I don't know if this is already brought up, but isn't it possible to use the rating from the Folyami Project? So if you have a "team" of 6 people the four highest rated pipsqueaks of that team can score for the a-team and the other two score for the b-team.

I hadn't thought of a promotion system between A-teams and B-teams, in part because the primary use case I had in mind were casual "squad rotation" B-teams, which are perhaps easier to run if there is as little structure as possible. A carefully implemented promotion system, though, could be compatible with the spirit of that idea. Furthermore, as you say, there are quite a few interesting things about this arrangement: aspects of both "squad rotation" and "academy" teams are incorporated organically, there is no risk of the relationship with the parent team freezing into a permanent hierarchy, and there is an additional incentive for the A-team/B-team pair to work together.

(It's worth noting that there is a real choice underlying that last point: a B-team system with a less permeable separation might, by encouraging B-teams to become independent, work as a new team incubator, which could be a worthy goal in itself.)

Specifically about Folyami, one arguable weakness it has for this purpose is that inactive pipsqueaks are dropped from the current ranking but do not lose points. That being so, someone who were to race once every four rounds would stay continuously in the ranking and, if maintaining their usual level of performance, keep a largely stable rating -- and thus potentially remain forever in the A-team. A partial workaround might be allowing each team to assign one or two pipsqueaks to the B-team, so that, if someone knows in advance they will only race a few times through the season, they don't need to take a slot in the A-team.

(An example of a ranking from an earlier era that handled inactivity in a different way is SWR. It had an activity coefficient, and so there was a cost for missing races even before getting dropped from the ranking.)

The other big question in a Folyami-based system, I think, would be how often to carry out the promotions and demotions between the squads. Doing it every race could get awkward to keep track of, while only doing it at the beginning of the season might deviate from the spirit of the proposal by keeping things too static. Perhaps exchanging pipsqueaks every four rounds, in line with the Folyami inactivity windows, would be a good compromise.