Plaidoyer: Maintaining Fairness and Skill in Stunts

[HerrNove]

I think whatever I could write would be just a copy-paste of the points that Duplode and Dreadnaut have made. I'll only add I appreciate a lot their (and Argammon's) calm responses. I hope shoutbox and forum continue to have the atmosphere of friendliness and collaboration I have witnessed in my few months here.

[Victor Narl]

None of this is novel or surprising in any way with respect to the meta. The one recent rule change (around the beginning of the current ZakStunts era) with relevant metagame consequences was the 2019 bonus system revision, which brought the coefficients closer to each other, leading as a side effect to PG cars getting wins somewhat more often than the 4/16 chance odds (that is a very well known issue that has been amply discussed -- for evidence, see the pre-season rule discussion threads of the last several years). Even that has precedents in earlier ZakStunts history, in particular the famous 2008 season.

I wonder why they brought the coefficients closer together? Wouldn't it be easier to return them to how they were before the rapprochement? Or is it boring without grass?

[Alain il professore]

Hello again my friends,

Since the 2019 changes, the current meta hasn't worked as intended. The reduction of negative bonuses for PG cars was even admitted to benefit shortcut finders by @Duplode. It's time to revert to the pre-2019 coefficients and the 50% bonus rule, which were fairer and more balanced. Let's discuss this and push for a community vote to make it happen.

Thank you for your precious time reading me!

[alanrotoi]

PG and off-road driving may look similar concepts but aren't synonyms.
Look this breath taking lap by Renato Biker. No PG at all still an off-road madness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_0gaMOaTg


The community had excellent OWOOT Indy competitions and it was PG all the time without grass.
Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPHYQGddUCM

[Duplode]

I wonder why they brought the coefficients closer together? Wouldn't it be easier to return them to how they were before the rapprochement?

The motivation for the change was that far apart coefficients make it very difficult for multiple cars to be competitive in a single race. The end result was that you'd get the downsides of the multi-car system (not being able to set the car in advance and tailor the track to it) without the upsides (the strategic richness and fun afforded by having multiple competitive cars). This issue has come up in previous pre-season threads as well, and the consensus so far has been to keep the bonuses close and look for other ways of managing any side effects.

[Alain il professore]

PG and off-road driving may look similar concepts but aren't synonyms.
Look this breath taking lap by Renato Biker. No RH at all still an off-road madness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_0gaMOaTg


The community had excellent OWOOT Indy competitions and it was PG all the time without grass.
Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPHYQGddUCM

ZCT 139 was a very good example of a fair and balanced meta, let's work on what did change in 2025 from this perfect race in 2013.

[Duplode]

Those charts are actually from ZCT139, the following race. ZCT138 was famously decided by two late plot twists, in which a quartet of Vettes demoted Renato's lap (perhaps the strongest Audi replay ever) and everyone else to 5th and below.

In any case, to compare the pre-2019 and post-2019 systems you shouldn't look at isolated races, but rather at the bonus evolution and succession of car choices across the months.

[Victor Narl]

The motivation for the change was that far apart coefficients make it very difficult for multiple cars to be competitive in a single race. The end result was that you'd get the downsides of the multi-car system (not being able to set the car in advance and tailor the track to it) without the upsides (the strategic richness and fun afforded by having multiple competitive cars). This issue has came up in previous pre-season threads as well, and the consensus so far has been to keep the bonuses close and look for other ways of managing any side effects.

since there were no clear advantages, it makes sense to return to the previous system of coefficients that gave more of a sporting struggle, therefore I propose to put to a fair vote the return of the old coefficients

[Alain il professore]

ZCT 138 was a very good example of a fair and balanced meta, let's work on what did change in 2025 from this perfect race in 2013.

Sorry for that my friend, I edited it later.

Those charts are actually from ZCT139, the following race. ZCT138 was famously decided by two late plot twists, in which a quartet of Vettes demoted Renato's lap (perhaps the strongest Audi replay ever) and everyone else to 5th and below.

In any case, to compare the pre-2019 and post-2019 systems you shouldn't look at isolated races, but rather at the bonus evolution and succession of car choices across the months.

Let's just do that!

[HerrNove]

The motivation for the change was that far apart coefficients make it very difficult for multiple cars to be competitive in a single race. The end result was that you'd get the downsides of the multi-car system (not being able to set the car in advance and tailor the track to it) without the upsides (the strategic richness and fun afforded by having multiple competitive cars). This issue has came up in previous pre-season threads as well, and the consensus so far has been to keep the bonuses close and look for other ways of managing any side effects.

since there were no clear advantages, it makes sense to return to the previous system of coefficients that gave more of a sporting struggle, therefore I propose to put to a fair vote the return of the old coefficients

What Duplode said is that the system that gave "no clear advantages" was the previous one. If you want the sporting struggle (which, I take from Alain's screenshot, means no surprises at the end, no creative car choices, races decided by better micro-optimizations) the best way is to use a fixed car. And then you end up with yet another copy of Race For Kicks, DOSReloaded and now FranceStunts. No thanks: I greatly enjoyed downloading the latest replays in ZCT289 and discovering all the multiple approaches taken, and I have seen nothing similar in the other tournaments. I do not want changes, and I say this as someone who still cannot drive PG and has chosen to not join a team, so theoretically as one whom the rules you propose should benefit.

Aside: entering a tournament halfways and immediately requesting to change its long-standing rules which everybody else seems to be liking might be not the best way of making friends and influencing people, but this is just my opinion.

[Victor Narl]

Aside: entering a tournament halfways and immediately requesting to change its long-standing rules which everybody else seems to be liking might be not the best way of making friends and influencing people, but this is just my opinion.

It will be a surprise for you to hear that to be honest I didn't want to come here at all, never.. I don't like coefficients in general (any) and their introduction was the biggest mistake. I prefer a competition on a fixed by the organizer car with fair rules, it's just that I have been persistently agitated for half a year to register here. But I didn't come here to be slandered and mixed with shit! And I can leave at any time, it's not difficult for me. P.S. Also I will NEVER drive more than 50% on grass even if it's faster, I consider such a victory cheating, but I'm not a cheater and this is absolutely unacceptable to me! Good Luck

[Matei]

https://matei.one/invidious.php?v=DSGuRv3hINc

Сил во мне так много,
я создаю сама себе свою дорогу.
Хватит с вас уроков,
и я бегу в даль сломав столбы упрёков.

I'm not interested in races, btw, as I already mentioned a few times.

[Alain il professore]

We are now in 2025, in a biased race where:

Every two month in average, the PG cars has an unbeatable advantage. The rest of the year, the non PG car can win.

Of course non PG cars still can win, but it's not making up for all the months when non PG cars have no realistic chance to win!

The admins see that, the pipsqueaks see that, and let it go. I cannot remain silent noticing this pattern only a few pipsqueaks has understood yet.

That is biasing the race in favor of pipsqueaks better at using PG cars, which is unfair. All other competitions use OWOOT to prevent PG cars use from their disgraceful advantage. Disgraceful, and history will judge as a probabilistic impossibility the past and future unstoppable winning streaks by the same PG cars, happening too often, and say: "What have they done... Were they blind?"

I have many solutions. They are written for the records in the marble of those zakstunts forum topics I wrote in august 2025. I am waiting.

[Victor Narl]

to ensure equal healthy competition I propose to discuss the following: for all 4 cars with PG (Indy, Acura, Corvette, Ferrari) use the corrected versions from Daniel3D (NoPG versions), this is a regular amateur patch that fixes a bug in the original cars, patches are used in almost all games