Plaidoyer: Maintaining Fairness and Skill in Stunts

[Matei]

Zapper's versions  look better.

https://wiki.stunts.hu/wiki/Zapper%27s_car_pack

[dreadnaut]

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

ZCT 139 was a very good example of a fair and balanced meta, let's work on what did change in 2025 from this perfect race in 2013

No-one on that ZCT139 scoreboard had less than 10 years of ZakStunts experience... except me! And I had the whole team helping me on that track. Fun race, but it was a single-car, month-long optimisation nightmare from my point of view as a recent start

[Victor Narl]

Zapper's versions  look better.

https://wiki.stunts.hu/wiki/Zapper%27s_car_pack

Zapper versions are much more different from the original (and therefore not suitable) than Daniel3D versions, which only have a patch to directly fix the PG bug and a minimum of changes

[dreadnaut]

It will be a surprise for you to hear that to be honest I didn't want to come here at all, never.. I don't like coefficients in general (any) and their introduction was the biggest mistake. I prefer a competition on a fixed by the organizer car with fair rules, it's just that I have been persistently agitated for half a year to register here. But I didn't come here to be slandered and mixed with shit! And I can leave at any time, it's not difficult for me.

Hey Victor, that sounds unpleasant and unhealthy, and I apologise if anyone in the community put pressure on you to join a competition you don't find enjoyable. While there were probably good intentions behind that, they were misguided in doing so. Please do the thing that is fun for you, and put us in our place if anyone pressures you otherwise.

[Alain il professore]

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

ZCT 139 was a very good example of a fair and balanced meta, let's work on what did change in 2025 from this perfect race in 2013

No-one on that ZCT139 scoreboard had less than 10 years of ZakStunts experience... except me! And I had the whole team helping me on that track. Fun race, but it was a single-car, month-long optimisation nightmare from my point of view as a recent start

Sorry for being rude bolding the sentence I wanted to underline, I do that for the sake of everyone understanding better where to look.

I have a clear, two words answer:

Inclusive leadership which emphasises on the value of equity and diversity.

The newcomer must be allowed to think: "If I don't want to play with a PG car, I can win any races."

Think again about that time when you were just a pipsqueak, not yet an admin and a pipsqueak. Now that you are an admin, provide the newcomers for the inclusive needs of the pipsqueak you were back then: fair play and equality of chances.

[Victor Narl]

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

it's not about the fact of PG presence, but that PG is unacceptable for racing because of the grass braking bug
I think it's acceptable to drive on grass in free, but in general, the grass shouldn't prevail over the track, otherwise the idea of the game originally conceived by the authors is lost. this is no longer Stunts where 80-90% of obstacles will be cut by a merciless grass bug, many newbies seeing such replays will not register and participate

[dreadnaut]

Thanks Victor, I think I understand your view on powergear as a bug, one that deviates too far from the idea of Stunts as a racing-on-a-track game.

Alain, apologies if my questions was mis-worded. What I want to ask is, to each participant, why do you not attempt or send a powergear lap? I need more information beyond "most people would..."


A thought: powergear is a tricky skill. I had to drive a powergear lap in my second race, and could only do so because of the folks in the shoutbox and forum guiding me — no team yet! Took me a long time to learn before I could get near a PG podium. Fast-forward to today, I think we have some nice resources like Overdrjft's video, but nothing othewise little on powergear! Learning resources might be part of the steep obstacle 🤔


One point I should make clear now though: this is a useful discussion to drive the rules for next season, maybe coefficient changes (double bonus loss for PG podium positions?), anything to improve the balance, but powergear is a feature of ZakStunts, and it's here to stay.

(and I repeat, ZakStunts is not the whole Stunts world, there are other great competitions to enjoy without powergear)

[Matei]

Let's not forget that

Stunts shows very advanced technology

and the speeds of the cars are electronically limited.

https://www.rostra.com/how-to-add-speed-limiter-to-a-vehicle.php

Rostra's speed-limiting systems work by blocking communication from the accelerator pedal being controlled by the driver's foot once the set speed limit has been reached.

In some cars, those speed-limiting systems don't always work properly and when that happens we can notice that there is actually no grass in the landscape. The green zones are just detected by the control software in the car, which adjusts the parameters accordingly. When we notice a bug in the software of the car controller we must stop the car and see what's wrong. We have 2 possibilities:

1. Update the software of the car controller;

2. Eliminate the car controller and just drive without it.

I never saw the second solution used. Anyway:

Zapper versions are much more different from the original (and therefore not suitable)

What does "not suitable" mean? Are you sure you're from Russia?

[Duplode]

Fast-forward to today, I think we have some nice resources like Overdrjft's videos, but nothing on powergear! Learning resources might be part of the steep obstacle 🤔

Nitpick: Stunts Academy episode 3 is mainly about powergear. In any case, the point remains that more resources will always be welcome!

[dreadnaut]

Whops, thanks Duplode, I stand corrected! (And so does my previous message)

[Alain il professore]

Thanks Victor, I think I understand your view on powergear as a bug, one that deviates too far from the idea of Stunts as a racing-on-a-track game.

Alain, apologies if my questions was mis-worded. What I want to ask is, to each participant, why do you not attempt or send a powergear lap? I need more information beyond "most people would..."


A thought: powergear is a tricky skill. I had to drive a powergear lap in my second race, and could only do so because of the folks in the shoutbox and forum guiding me — no team yet! Took me a long time to learn before I could get near a PG podium. Fast-forward to today, I think we have some nice resources like Overdrjft's videos, but nothing on powergear! Learning resources might be part of the steep obstacle 🤔


One point I should make clear now though: this is a useful discussion to drive the rules for next season, maybe coefficient changes (double bonus loss for PG podium positions?), anything to improve the balance, but powergear is a feature of ZakStunts, and it's here to stay.

(and I repeat, ZakStunts is not the whole Stunts world, there are other great competitions to enjoy without powergear)

I have a one word answer: "Ethos".

I quit competition in 2008 because of car bonuses. I didn't want to use PG, hiding my replays against the field, not taking part in the time attack battle because it would kill the spirit of our collaborative competition. I didn't want that format then, and will never use it in the future, defending high values, viewing competition as a collaborative exploration rather than a winner take all mindset. I want to be able to beat a PG car with a non PG car every month. And it's not, it will never be the case with this format.

For instance, https://imgur.com/ajg8k3L.png in 2003, I found all the PG shortcuts and shared them with my 5 team members. It was one of the few races with a power gear of the whole year and everyone in the scoreboard used it. It was fair competition. Now in 2025 it's 6 months on PG and 3% of pipsqueaks using it take all the wins.

The elephant in the room might not seem obvious for some, but I'm sure history will prove me right.

[alanrotoi]

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

it's not about the fact of PG presence, but that PG is unacceptable for racing because of the grass braking bug
I think it's acceptable to drive on grass in free, but in general, the grass shouldn't prevail over the track, otherwise the idea of the game originally conceived by the authors is lost. this is no longer Stunts where 80-90% of obstacles will be cut by a merciless grass bug, many newbies seeing such replays will not register and participate

It's not about the car it's about track building criteria. We had a season 2023 with many of us trying to prevent PG with flooded tracks. It was quiet boring and annoying and the objetive was failed. You can also check the ratings of the tracks and they were low.

If you want a non pg race sign for building a track and make it impossible for pg. Not an easy task even with flooded (boring most of them) tracks.

[dreadnaut]

Now in 2025 it's 6 months on PG and 3% of pipsqueaks using it take all the wins.

That is an understatement: those few are winning all races, with or without powergear! Maybe they are better drivers, or maybe they dedicate a lot of time optimising their ZakStunts laps. The two things often overlap.

Why are other folks not winning the non-powergear races? How does removing powergear from the equation solve that problem?

[Alain il professore]

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

it's not about the fact of PG presence, but that PG is unacceptable for racing because of the grass braking bug
I think it's acceptable to drive on grass in free, but in general, the grass shouldn't prevail over the track, otherwise the idea of the game originally conceived by the authors is lost. this is no longer Stunts where 80-90% of obstacles will be cut by a merciless grass bug, many newbies seeing such replays will not register and participate

It's not about the car it's about track building criteria. We had a season 2023 with many of us trying to prevent PG with flooded tracks. It was quiet boring and annoying and the objetive was failed. You can also check the ratings of the tracks and they were low.

If you want a non pg race sign for building a track and make it impossible for pg. Not an easy task even with flooded (boring most of them) tracks.

There might be a compromise beyond "impossible for PG". Ok, consensus is PG cars and non PG cars mix like vinegar and oil even if the track is meticuously prepared to impair PG dominance.

There's one idea to fit them all: separate PG competition and non PG competition by providing them in alternation. Let's respect historic PG/non PG car distribution: around 10-15% PG races every year.

Thank you for reading my post, I hope your day was perfect and you sent a lap at ZCT290.

[Alain il professore]

Now in 2025 it's 6 months on PG and 3% of pipsqueaks using it take all the wins.

That is an understatement: those few are winning all races, with or without powergear! Maybe they are better drivers, or maybe they dedicate a lot of time optimising their ZakStunts laps. The two things often overlap.

Why are other folks not winning the non-powergear races? How does removing powergear from the equation solve that problem?

I agree. The point is not only how many time they win, but how close or distorted are the results. With PG it's not even close, without PG it's close and fair. Unless there were more races to judge from, it could be more conclusive, but there were only three non PG races with a majority of close results in 2025. The six other tracks were PG with a unanimously distorted gap.

Have a nice day on the tracks!