Plaidoyer: Maintaining Fairness and Skill in Stunts

[Victor Narl]

Thanks Victor, I think I understand your view on powergear as a bug, one that deviates too far from the idea of Stunts as a racing-on-a-track game.

Alain, apologies if my questions was mis-worded. What I want to ask is, to each participant, why do you not attempt or send a powergear lap? I need more information beyond "most people would..."


A thought: powergear is a tricky skill. I had to drive a powergear lap in my second race, and could only do so because of the folks in the shoutbox and forum guiding me — no team yet! Took me a long time to learn before I could get near a PG podium. Fast-forward to today, I think we have some nice resources like Overdrjft's video, but nothing othewise little on powergear! Learning resources might be part of the steep obstacle 🤔


One point I should make clear now though: this is a useful discussion to drive the rules for next season, maybe coefficient changes (double bonus loss for PG podium positions?), anything to improve the balance, but powergear is a feature of ZakStunts, and it's here to stay.

(and I repeat, ZakStunts is not the whole Stunts world, there are other great competitions to enjoy without powergear)

let's go back to 1990 when the game was created and think about what was the author's idea? and what meaning did Kevin Pickell put into it? the grass bug was clearly not conceived by the authors, and was never part of the idea of ��the game, Kevin Pickell said this in his late interview with two simple words: "it's a bug!". when there are errors in all games, patches are used to fix errors. hence the question: if Kevin Pickell himself had released the original patch with a fixed grass bug, would you continue to use the old version or the fixed version? unfortunately, Kevin Pickell did not have time to release the patch due to insurmountable reasons, but there is an amateur patch from Daniel3d. why don't you want to use the fixed versions in the spirit of the game's author's ideas?

[Victor Narl]

If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:

Once a car wins a race, it becomes unavailable for the rest of the season.

We can then discuss whether a pool of 16 cars remains sufficient under this rule.

your proposal looks fresh as a compromise measure, in general I support it. but it is even better to use patched versions from Daniel3D, then you won't have to change anything at all

[Alain il professore]

I agree with Victor. Those proposals are common sense, but more than that the words of wisdom of a veteran player that knows all the tricks in the game better than us. He's not reached the maximum ELO of Stunts by mistake.

[Matei]

Again, Stunts doesn't have bugs.

https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4482.msg98390#msg98390

https://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=4482.msg98328#msg98328

Forget about what Kevin Pickell said:

Fifa International Soccer was my favorite after that, [...]. Technically speaking the code I am most proud of is in a game called Skitchin on the Sega Genesis. Up until Skitchin, the music on the Genesis was very plain and boring, I figured out a way to make music with multiple digital samples play at the same time.

Skitchin was a junk game with junk music but we can appreciate its code, which we don't have access to anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9O-vxPD-Ek

[HerrNove]

Since I'm the only genuine newbie here, allow me to say that I'm against any change of rules that reduces car or strategy choices. The "drop winning cars" rule would also penalize track and car creators. Imagine Frieshansen building "Lord of the Rings" and finding out the Audi is not available. Or Ryoma seeing the Diablo out of the compo after just two months.

Also, the recent streak of victories of PG cars seems mostly to be the result of them being underrepresented in 2024, which led their combined bonus to reach +15% at the start of the year. At present it is at -17%, so the trend will settle down by itself, without needing external assists.

Other points:
* I'm also against extending the discretionary bonus range to ±20%. This would be the equivalent of the track designer being able to mandate a car. With ±10% we instead just had a very interesting month where the suggested car (Quattro) was subverted by the Lambo, and then by the Corvette. I found it excellent.
* More rules are usually bad for newbies, as the recent disqualification of StanceboyCZ's lap from R4K shows. I am also not super happy of having wasted time to find a rules-sanctioned way to negotiate the slalom, just to see said rule changed two days after. I like to put the most work in the very first days of the compo, so this would have been a big turn-off for me if I had taken the race as seriously as I do in ZakStunts.

[Argammon]

If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:

Once a car wins a race, it becomes unavailable for the rest of the season.

We can then discuss whether a pool of 16 cars remains sufficient under this rule.

your proposal looks fresh as a compromise measure, in general I support it. but it is even better to use patched versions from Daniel3D, then you won't have to change anything at all

Thank you for bringing the discussion back to a mature level — I truly appreciate it. 🙂

Please allow me to share how I see the situation. I openly acknowledge that the combination of PG cars and the car coefficient system gives me an advantage. My strongest skill in stunts is, without question, the ability to manage a PG lap where others cannot — which explains the high number of unexpected PG surprises.

Now, let's address the question of whether we should introduce rules to limit or even ban PG cars. From my perspective, pipsqueaks have different preferences:

• Some enjoy driving PG laps — I'm one of them. I'm fascinated by the strategic side of stunts: a great stunts map is full of inventive tricks, and I love discovering them and finding the best car–track combination.
  
• Others simply enjoy watching PG laps because they're spectacular — my ZCT 284 Corvette lap is a good example.
  
• Many casual competitors are indifferent to PG cars.
  
• And finally, there are pipsqueaks who actively dislike their presence — you and Alain fall into this group.
  

I respect all of these viewpoints. As humans, we all have different preferences. What matters less to me is Kevin Pickell's original intention over 35 years ago. If what began as a bug now provides enjoyment to several of us, its technical origin doesn't necessarily mean it should be removed. What matters most is what the community thinks — and that's difficult to gauge, given the limited participation in this discussion.

We also shouldn't overlook an important point raised by @dreadnaut: Zakstunts is currently the only active competition that features both free rules and power-gear laps. Those who prefer OWOOT driving already have several other competitions available. This is a key consideration.

Putting aside the fact that I personally benefit from the current format, I believe that in an ideal scenario, all cars should have an equal chance of winning. If we agree that's a worthwhile goal, the next challenge is figuring out how to get there. @HerrNove mentioned some justified concerns regarding my proposal so we should keep the brainstorming going.

[dreadnaut]

I'm just spotting patterns and drinking detox bio tea.

What is this, @Alain? You change topic, make another aggressive joke on a different channel, post two messages on topic, and assume it all goes away?

It's 2025, and I expect an adult to be responsible for their behaviour, not squirrel away for a moment. So I need you to use your adult powers and think about why your behaviour is a problem, and ask questions if you don't understand. If you can't do that (pride, shame, I'm-in-the-right-here), you are out.

If there are other difficulties that we don't know about, bring them out. There's been others who said "sorry, I've got baggage and I've been shit", to then deal with their issues without unleashing them on the community.

Hint: while you keep saying you are doing things for weaker pipsqueaks, this is plainly for yourself. If you cared about others, you'd be elevating their voices, opening up the stage, instead of drowning it with noise by being the loudest voice and shutting off everyone else, to the point that I have folks telling me "I just try to be nice and not say a lot when he's in the middle".

So you either solve this in the next hours, or the ban is coming.

[KyLiE]

@KyLiE is the only pipsqueak that could help us with hints on what you want to know, he is the only one who saw how to do it, and drove for a ZCT289 podium.

As far as I'm aware, I was the first person in our team to attempt a power gear lap with the Corvette.

I'd love to know how much total time you invested @KyLiE once you had the informations needed to imitate the PG lap.

It was a team effort.  If you really must know, I spent 6.5 hours trying to pull off a power gear lap with the Corvette.  That doesn't include the time I spent driving other cars.  You seem to be insinuating that I blatantly copied @Argammon with little to no effort, but if you compare our replays, you'll realise that we both have quite different approaches to reaching power gear.

I am also not super happy of having wasted time to find a rules-sanctioned way to negotiate the slalom, just to see said rule changed two days after.

The slalom was a ticking time bomb at Race For Kicks that unfortunately went off during that race.  The rules were changed to make sure that it didn't happen again and to make it fair for the majority of the race.  We did the best that we could in that situation.  We like to make the competition as inviting as possible for newcomers, so rest assured, the rules won't be changing again anytime soon.

[HerrNove]

I am also not super happy of having wasted time to find a rules-sanctioned way to negotiate the slalom, just to see said rule changed two days after.

The slalom was a ticking time bomb at Race For Kicks that unfortunately went off during that race.  The rules were changed to make sure that it didn't happen again and to make it fair for the majority of the race.  We did the best that we could in that situation.  We like to make the competition as inviting as possible for newcomers, so rest assured, the rules won't be changing again anytime soon.

Sorry for that part: when I have complaints I use to raise them directly and not complain behind the back. I just wanted to use this as example of how having more rules tends to generate more of these situations. I understand ZakStunts had similar cases with dual-way switching and track splits neat the endline, so no tournament is safe in this respect.

[Daniel3D]

Ok. First off.
I half read the first few posts, way to much text for me at the moment..
Scrolled through the first two pages..
What a chaotic mess this topic is..

But anyway..

I personally don't like the main ZakStunts competition because it is very difficult.
But that is also the reason it still exists.
Changing the competition to much could break it for ever..

I always voted for diversity.
That's why I opted for and launched two alternative competitions.

I don't have the strength or peace of mind to keep them going unfortunately.
But they are there and available.
Easy to reboot..

Both are in-between freestyle and OWOOT.
Both are preferably without PG cars..

About fairness in the game..
It starts with oneself.. be fair and kind to others before you demand it in return..

[Overdrijf]

I haven't read nearly everyone's posts yet. But I would like to offer my perspective here:

There are multiple running Stunts competitions. All but one have some sort of limitation on going off-track and a way to prevent PG surprises in the form of limited car choice. The exception is Zakstunts, which focusus on freestyle driving, allowing crazy improvized stunts and powergear and offroad driving and car picking. That competition is the most popular one. Presumably the people racing there race there because they like this style.

So I guess my question is: if people want a competition with the rules proposed in this thread, and they clearly do given the length of this thread, is Zakstunts really the place to make that happen?

[Argammon]

I haven't read nearly everyone's posts yet. But I would like to offer my perspective here:

There are multiple running Stunts competitions. All but one have some sort of limitation on going off-track and a way to prevent PG surprises in the form of limited car choice. The exception is Zakstunts, which focusus on freestyle driving, allowing crazy improvized stunts and powergear and offroad driving and car picking. That competition is the most popular one. Presumably the people racing there race there because they like this style.

So I guess my question is: if people want a competition with the rules proposed in this thread, and they clearly do given the length of this thread, is Zakstunts really the place to make that happen?

I think the reason is that even those who do not like the rules understand that Zakstunts is by far the most prestigious Stunts competition. Winning a Zakstunts race (the main scoreboard not GAR) cannot be compared to anything else in that regards.