ZakStunts pipsqueaks Tier List

[alanrotoi]

What is good of this tier tool is to make it easy the personal point of view, the feeling or impressions about ourselves and the rest. That's not good or bad, it's the truth from every of us.

I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.

https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT280 (First flight of that type in competition)

I remember Gutix doing this trick, somebody would remind me which track it was.

Duplode is a giant that likes to sleep a lot He's the best active pipsqueak.

About Akoss' performance I put him in B tier, probably because I didn't race against him at his prime when I wasn't sending elaborated replays. I feel CTG from 2021 was harder to race than Akoss 2003 (not his prime). That's why the different tiers in my evaluation.

MiDiaN is a surprise for me. He came from paleolitic Stunts eras like Mark Nailwood (who I worship as the best of the pre-ZakStunts era). He (MiDiaN) is showing an unimaginable performance and he's growing and growing. I see in him potential to stay in tier A but I also know he didn't show everything he can do yet. So I'll keep watching him because the big 4 could find the 5th mate. If I can play Palpatine once again (I did it with Gutix and Ayrton) it would be fantastic. I hope the language won't be a barrier.

And as I like top tiers, I find a lot of fun in the fights that doesn't appear in the newspapers. I mean to be in a B or C tiers doesn't mean the fights, the races or the tricks are less interesting. Back in 2021 I followed close the season fight between Overdrijf, dreadnaut, Zapper and Heretic. These "silent" fights must be awarded somehow. That's why we started to elaborated ideas like PTB, a wider point system that covers more pipsqueaks than the top 4. I think it needs few fixes but i's already a success.

[Argammon]

(...)

What is good of this tier tool is to make it easy the personal point of view, the feeling or impressions about ourselves and the rest. That's not good or bad, it's the truth from every of us.

I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.

(...)

I wrote that I do not like blowing my own horn and that is true. Hence, I am not going to continue doing it. All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective. Because you, Alanrotoi, rate the replays of your personal top four more highly than mine you conclude that they are a tier above me.

There is no possible way for me to "refute" such a subjective view. Hence, let us just agree to disagree.


Edit: To clarify, I don't have a problem that we disagree on these subjective "tiers". It is fine with me that you do not see me in your personal top 4. I am just pointing out that our rankings are  of a very subjective nature and that I do not agree with yours. 

[alanrotoi]

About tier E I deliverated added Skid here. From a personal POV at least Skid's performance (a bit above him and a bit under him) is still an amateur level. When I joined the community I was at that level. I beated Skid 90% of times at home competitions (My brother, AI opponents and me). Try this exercise: a track without water, without bridges, without PG, without pipes or corkscrews and without shortcuts (try to stay on the road mainly). Only asphalt, banked roads, highways, loops. Race against Skid both with the same car, then tell me if he's that easy.

[alanrotoi]

All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective.

Of course, that's the meaning. This doesn't make it any less important. To show and to know our personal subjectivety in a tier format. It's important to know how we think and how we see each other. There won't be a wrong tier list and also there can be more than one tier list from every of us since we can have many subjectiveties or points of view according to the many virtues a pipsqueak's performance can be catalogued.

Every opinion,always is made from facts and from subjectivety. We should fear an IA if it developes subjectivety... or not. But how it works my opinion here? I know I can beat you at any time as I also know you can beat me at any time. I can't say the same with Duplode. This video is the best way to explain my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8JXL2gFTo

[Argammon]

All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective.

Of course, that's the meaning. This doesn't make it any less important. To show and to know our personal subjectivety in a tier format. It's important to know how we think and how we see each other. There won't be a wrong tier list and also there can be more than one tier list from every of us since we can have many subjectiveties or points of view according to the many virtues a pipsqueak's performance can be catalogued.

Every opinion,always is made from facts and from subjectivety. We should fear an IA if it developes subjectivety... or not. But how it works my opinion here? I know I can beat you at any time as I also know you can beat me at any time. I can't say the same with Duplode. This video is the best way to explain my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8JXL2gFTo

He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple. Can we stop this silly discussion?

[MiDiaN]

I'm still pretty new to this community, so I won't make a full tier list, but after watching a bunch of replays from top players, I wanted to share some notable ones. This is just my personal list, sorry if I missed anyone.

Alien-tier 👽 - You start wondering if these players are human or some kind of secret AI experiment gone rogue.
Renato Biker, Ayrton, Alan Rotoi

S-tier 💎 - Flawless lines, no mistakes. Almost pixel-perfect driving.
Gutix, Duplode, CTG, Akoss Poo, FinRok, Alain

[alanrotoi]

He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple.

Yes, this was the zct243 but not always was like this. The point of the video is to show no matter the effort I did or the crazy tricks I tryied, he beated me with a simplier but perfect drive that was the best choice.

Can we stop this silly discussion?

It was never a discussion from me. So no hard feelings from my part. This is an exchange of point of view and opinions. There is no tier list of opinions . CTG said a valid point in my list about akoss' performance. I see good will in the comments of this thread so we can keep doing and sharing lists!

[Argammon]

He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple.

Yes, this was the zct243 but not always was like this. The point of the video is to show no matter the effort I did or the crazy tricks I tryied, he beated me with a simplier but perfect drive that was the best choice.

Can we stop this silly discussion?

It was never a discussion from me. So no hard feelings from my part. This is an exchange of point of view and opinions. There is no tier list of opinions . CTG said a valid point in my list about akoss' performance. I see good will in the comments of this thread so we can keep doing and sharing lists!

Sorry for not being clear. What I tried suggesting was that we stop our discussion about whether I belong in tier A or S. Whereas I put more weight on (somewhat) object measures such as the Folyami rating (Me->Tier S), direct clashes (Ayrton, Gutix -> tier S), the medal table (Duplode ->Tier S, MidiAN ->one tier down), or a combination of those (Renato->Tier S), you look at replays and subjectively decide which ones you like best. We are not going to reach an agreement here, but -as mentioned- it is fine to agree to disagree. You are of course free to continue discussing the tiers with other pipsqueaks as long as you please. 

Regarding the replay you posted, there is little doubt that Duplode is one of the best OWOOT pipsqueaks in history. But even the top pipsqueaks have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not like Duplode is better than you on every possible type of track.
 
Finally, I would like to point out that even the "track" issue is subtle. As an example, consider someone saying "pipsqueak X is best at power-gear". What does this really mean? Even here, we have to distinguish between

• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is easy and the race is about finding the last milliseconds. https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT287 is a good example for this.
• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is extremely difficult. Here the most important issue is to complete a power-gear lap where others fail, see https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT284 for example
• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is easy but that hide incredible but difficult shortcuts that upon completion give a pipsqueak the upper edge, https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT260 is a prime example for this. (How you cannot admire this trick is beyond me. If Ayrton did it, it would be the most magical trick in stunts history.)

Of course, you could add more categories and thereby make the list even more fine grained. My point is that it is not the same pipsqueak who is the best in all possible categories. The same is true for the many different types of NON-PG tracks.

This will be my last post on this topic for a while as I will be away travelling. So see you at the end of ZCT292.

What I can promise is that I am not going to submit a maxed out replay, meaning that I will only be able to win if I find tricks or shortcuts that the competitors do not. But tricks and shortcuts are what I love about Zakstunts. Spending half an hour to max out a corner is what I find extremely boring.

[CTG]

Bonus:

Tier B: Dottore
Tier C: Bolo Yeung, Navras, Böllér Jani, Rokker Zsolti
Tier D: CrazyDriver, Ukyo Katayama, Zweigelt



(Yes, there were many other, less important ghosts - I don't remember them.)

[dreadnaut]

I'll have @alanrotoi and @Argammon in my S tier of folks who create interesting threads.

I don't know enough to attempt a tier, but I'll put @CTG and @Renato Biker at the top tier for "pipsqueaks who are good at hinting and explaining how to drive well". Marco, Seeker1982, Duplode and FinRok are brilliant at the driving bit, so deadly in live races. Tricks are an interesting mix of patience, attention to detail, imagination, and dedication/time. I have trouble differentiating, but I know I can get the first two with a powergear car. I have only admiration for those who can put consistent skill and effort on all those fronts.