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[If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:]

If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:

Once a car wins a race, it becomes unavailable for the rest of the season.

We can then discuss whether a pool of 16 cars remains sufficient under this rule.

your proposal looks fresh as a compromise measure, in general I support it. but it is even better to use patched versions from Daniel3D, then you won't have to change anything at all

[powergear is a feature of ZakStunts]

Thanks Victor, I think I understand your view on powergear as a bug, one that deviates too far from the idea of Stunts as a racing-on-a-track game.

Alain, apologies if my questions was mis-worded. What I want to ask is, to each participant, why do you not attempt or send a powergear lap? I need more information beyond "most people would..."


A thought: powergear is a tricky skill. I had to drive a powergear lap in my second race, and could only do so because of the folks in the shoutbox and forum guiding me — no team yet! Took me a long time to learn before I could get near a PG podium. Fast-forward to today, I think we have some nice resources like Overdrjft's video, but nothing othewise little on powergear! Learning resources might be part of the steep obstacle 🤔


One point I should make clear now though: this is a useful discussion to drive the rules for next season, maybe coefficient changes (double bonus loss for PG podium positions?), anything to improve the balance, but powergear is a feature of ZakStunts, and it's here to stay.

(and I repeat, ZakStunts is not the whole Stunts world, there are other great competitions to enjoy without powergear)

let's go back to 1990 when the game was created and think about what was the author's idea? and what meaning did Kevin Pickell put into it? the grass bug was clearly not conceived by the authors, and was never part of the idea of ��the game, Kevin Pickell said this in his late interview with two simple words: "it's a bug!". when there are errors in all games, patches are used to fix errors. hence the question: if Kevin Pickell himself had released the original patch with a fixed grass bug, would you continue to use the old version or the fixed version? unfortunately, Kevin Pickell did not have time to release the patch due to insurmountable reasons, but there is an amateur patch from Daniel3d. why don't you want to use the fixed versions in the spirit of the game's author's ideas?

@dreadnaut, Please respond regarding my proposal Yesterday at 02:11:20 PM

I also propose to discuss increasing the designer coefficient points from +/-10 to +/-20, this will give the track designer more freedom and will allow him to better evaluate the capabilities of the cars

@Alain, if you agree with me then you misunderstood my message 😅 My point is that the same people win PG and non-PG races. Removing PG from the equation doesn't change the result: they win because, at that moment in time, they are the most dedicated pipsqueaks.

You could argue for "a distortion" only if there were two different sets of drivers: those who win/podium all the PG races, and those who only win/podium the "rare" non-PG races.

Look at the past five years: can you find significant evidence of these two groups?

If someone always lands in the middle of the scoreboard (✋), claiming "oh, I would have won this race if it weren't for powergear" would be disingenous.

it's not about who can drive better with or without PG, it's about healthy competition. a gap like this race is outrageous and doesn't show a real advantage in skill https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT284 - I think such races discredit the game itself and this championship

I hear the "continuous powergear suprises are not a surprise" point.

Just so I understand, what's preventing folks from sending powergear replays?

- don't search for a powergear route?
- can't find a powergear route?
- don't enjoy driving powergear?
- feel less competitive with powergear cars?
- don't have time for powergear laps?
- powergear is wrong™

it's not about the fact of PG presence, but that PG is unacceptable for racing because of the grass braking bug
I think it's acceptable to drive on grass in free, but in general, the grass shouldn't prevail over the track, otherwise the idea of the game originally conceived by the authors is lost. this is no longer Stunts where 80-90% of obstacles will be cut by a merciless grass bug, many newbies seeing such replays will not register and participate

Zapper's versions  look better.

https://wiki.stunts.hu/wiki/Zapper%27s_car_pack

Zapper versions are much more different from the original (and therefore not suitable) than Daniel3D versions, which only have a patch to directly fix the PG bug and a minimum of changes

to ensure equal healthy competition I propose to discuss the following: for all 4 cars with PG (Indy, Acura, Corvette, Ferrari) use the corrected versions from Daniel3D (NoPG versions), this is a regular amateur patch that fixes a bug in the original cars, patches are used in almost all games

Aside: entering a tournament halfways and immediately requesting to change its long-standing rules which everybody else seems to be liking might be not the best way of making friends and influencing people, but this is just my opinion.

It will be a surprise for you to hear that to be honest I didn't want to come here at all, never.. I don't like coefficients in general (any) and their introduction was the biggest mistake. I prefer a competition on a fixed by the organizer car with fair rules, it's just that I have been persistently agitated for half a year to register here. But I didn't come here to be slandered and mixed with shit! And I can leave at any time, it's not difficult for me. P.S. Also I will NEVER drive more than 50% on grass even if it's faster, I consider such a victory cheating, but I'm not a cheater and this is absolutely unacceptable to me! Good Luck

The motivation for the change was that far apart coefficients make it very difficult for multiple cars to be competitive in a single race. The end result was that you'd get the downsides of the multi-car system (not being able to set the car in advance and tailor the track to it) without the upsides (the strategic richness and fun afforded by having multiple competitive cars). This issue has came up in previous pre-season threads as well, and the consensus so far has been to keep the bonuses close and look for other ways of managing any side effects.

since there were no clear advantages, it makes sense to return to the previous system of coefficients that gave more of a sporting struggle, therefore I propose to put to a fair vote the return of the old coefficients

None of this is novel or surprising in any way with respect to the meta. The one recent rule change (around the beginning of the current ZakStunts era) with relevant metagame consequences was the 2019 bonus system revision, which brought the coefficients closer to each other, leading as a side effect to PG cars getting wins somewhat more often than the 4/16 chance odds (that is a very well known issue that has been amply discussed -- for evidence, see the pre-season rule discussion threads of the last several years). Even that has precedents in earlier ZakStunts history, in particular the famous 2008 season.

I wonder why they brought the coefficients closer together? Wouldn't it be easier to return them to how they were before the rapprochement? Or is it boring without grass?

a deeper analysis of the replay is needed, for example, recovery after an accident usually occurs in certain places, and a normal press of the gas pedal in this place would be strange, On a straight line it's also strange to press the gas several times - then there was RH

also, together with the replay, you need to analyze the HIG file, if the HIG was tampered with, then this can also be determined by examining the last seconds of the replay for evidence of pressing the gas pedal just before the finish, also the time of saving the replay and HIG should be identified to avoid tampering

in NoRH competitions need to demand both replay and HIG

Usually, RH can always be distinguished from NoRH with careful viewing and it is not really possible to cheat here.

for example:
The RH replay clearly shows that it has all the hallmarks of a replay-processed race, such as overly smooth corners and more near-runs than you might expect.
these are not my words, but the words of Overdrijf https://dosreloaded.de/forum/thread/7264-4d-sports-driving-stunts-jahrescontest-2024/?pageNo=4

Sorry, but this is not correct. Even if a pipsqueak only uses RH for "crash recovery" they get a massive advantage in NORH racing. Using it only for crash recovery is undetectable.

For example, when I am trying to get a top NORH time i am driving so risky that I only finish 5%-10% of all runs. (The 90-95% of non-finished runs also include runs in which I violated the ruleset, for example OWOOT).

If I were to continue racing after a crash, I would be able to finish many more strong runs than I would be able to do otherwise. And of course, finishing 40 strong runs likely gives a better time than finishing 2-4.

there is a wonderful program Replay Analyser (RA) by Robert Riebisch http://www.kalpen.de/luke/4dreplays.html it can be used to determine the presence of RH for each pipsqueak based on the statistics of the keys pressed, it can also be further developed so that even with single recoveries after accidents it would be possible to determine the presence of RH

[Yet here lies the elephant in the room: cheating in NORH competitions is arguably much easier]

On the other hand, they actively support NORH competitions (such as GAR and Dosreloaded), arguing that the experience is much closer to "real driving." Yet here lies the elephant in the room: cheating in NORH competitions is arguably much easier, since using RH cannot be detected. Why, then, is there no apparent concern about this type of cheating? I would appreciate some clarification.

Usually, RH can always be distinguished from NoRH with careful viewing and it is not really possible to cheat here.

for example:
The RH replay clearly shows that it has all the hallmarks of a replay-processed race, such as overly smooth corners and more near-runs than you might expect.
these are not my words, but the words of Overdrijf https://dosreloaded.de/forum/thread/7264-4d-sports-driving-stunts-jahrescontest-2024/?pageNo=4

I fully support the introduction of a final scoreboard for GAR, including at the bottom of the main page of the site https://zak.stunts.hu/seasons/2025 with the caption "Alternative competition" It is unclear why(!) the competition is held at all if there is no final scoreboard? What is the point of a monthly scoreboard then?