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Hello Stunters,

Welcome to ZCT292!
A track around and over couple islands near land shore that is GAR "friendly"   and PG "nightmare" .
I dare you all to be "Skilious" on this track

(looking forward for how skills are shown until the "finish line")

About the PG "nightmare": I will take the challenge but I am not sure an Indy or Acura PG lap is competitive. Let's see. 

[In any case, how could the system be "fixed"?]

I should not have a say about the rules for 2026, at least not for those affecting the season's standing.

But I thought I would mention that I agree with @MiDiaN and @HerrNove that it feels strange that it is sometimes beneficial to voluntarily stay just below the 1-bonus-point threshold. However, I also agree with @Duplode that the effect  likely does not have much practical relevance over a whole season.

In any case, how could the system be "fixed"?

It would be an easy fix to either remove carryover altogether or to allow carryover for all hours. As hinted at  by @dreadnaut and @Duplode this would remove the strategic metagame almost entirely. In particular if all hours carry over one could as well just track the total position time over the whole season.

Alternatively, quoting @MiDiaN's idea here, it may make sense to only award the big pot if a pipsqueak obtains 528 hours without the help of carryover. I must say that I am leaning towards this idea. Two bonus points are massive, essentially meaning that a second place plus the bonus is better than a first place together with just 0.5 bonus points.

Thanks for the positive replies guys, I'm touched! It was an honor to race against every one of you.

[What does that mean?]

After securing my second ZakStunts championship title, I've decided to "retire" at the end of this season. At the moment, I feel like stepping away for good — but I don't want to impose unnecessary constraints on myself, which is why I've chosen the word semi.

What does that mean? Like many of you, I'm in a stage of life with growing responsibilities, and I don't need additional stress factors. I won't be competing for any championship in any competition. To avoid the temptation of overcommitting, I won't take part in the first couple of ZakStunts races next season.

That said, I may still join a race here and there if the track, car, rules, or circumstances appeal to me and I happen to have some free time. The key word here is fun. If it's not enjoyable and starts to feel like a chore, then it's not worth doing.

A few words about the community When I returned at the end of 2022, @alanrotoi told me the community had changed for the better and was a very different place than before. He was absolutely right.\footnote{I admit that at times I slipped back into old patterns, and for that I'd like to apologize.}

Unfortunately, this season hasn't felt as harmonious. It's not my intention to point fingers at anyone, but I do believe things could improve if we all kept a few simple principles in mind:

• Respect differences of opinion. Disagreements are natural, especially about "rules" or "systems." But it's important not to present personal opinions as facts. For example, it's fine to argue why and how the PTB system could be improved, but calling it "broken" is not helpful. And sometimes, one simply has to accept that the majority does not share or agree with one's own opinion.. This happens to me a lot because I'm not A4 after all. 
  
  
  • Celebrate each other's achievements. When I came back, I noticed how @Duplode consistently congratulated pipsqueaks after each event, recognizing their achievements/efforts month after month. This simple gesture is polite, encouraging, and helps build a positive atmosphere. Yet some top pipsqueaks rarely, if ever, congratulate even the winner. Why not? It takes less than a minute, and it makes a big difference.
  
  Last but not least I would like to thank my team Rolling Stunts. This team accepted me with open arms and has been a great place to be. That our team worked so well is the main reason why I managed to sustain two full seasons of Zakstunts, something which I never did in the old days.

Great analysis. Thanks @Clairwill!

Clairwil is right, though

I should have known that ladies are always right I am a married man, after all.

MiDiaN should be the moral champion, but since he was a pro driver already in the last century I guess I can enjoy my amateur title with clean consciousness! ZakStunts 2025 was my first Stunts tournament ever, and actually the first racing tournament I ever took part in.

On a different topic, the masters really seem set to fight from the first minute this month. I can imagine Argammon is striving to get the mathematical certainty of his championship as soon as possible, and his competitors are hard at work to delay the party. Given the mechanics of PTB and its Fibonacci-based coefficients, the title might be mathematically awarded in a strange moment like the dead of night of a random Tuesday...

This happened today. If I am not mistaken, MiDiaN cannot reach 2 bonus points anymore which settles the case. 

Up until this point in the season, I have around 250 more leading hours compared to Argammon, excluding the carryover. With the carryover system Argammon is tied with me in PTB despite doing less.

I will exploit this system next season if it stays.

Is that so? If there was no carryover you "earned" about 115 hours more than I did. However, that number has to be taken with a grain of salt: For example when a pipsqueak passed the 1-bonus point threshold then you do not have an incentive to steal hours from him. There are many such strategic interactions.

We all look at this differently. From my perspective it would be very strange if I became the Zakstunts champion after trailing several points on the Season's standing table (PTB excluded). Put differently, fortunately -as far as I know- it did not yet happen that somebody became champion only due to having earned the most LTB/PTB.

Do not get me wrong, I know very well why the system exists. The fear is that pipsqueaks would otherwise send very few replays before the deadline making the competition look inactive. However, I do think that the effect is too strong. I would reduce the bonus points from 2/1/0.5 to 1/0.5/0.25 PTB*. In that case you can remove the carryover if you wish.

*Rationale: If a pipsqueak wins all 12 pipsqueaks but does not earn a single PTB point that pipsqueak still deserves the championship title in my opinion.

I haven't read nearly everyone's posts yet. But I would like to offer my perspective here:

There are multiple running Stunts competitions. All but one have some sort of limitation on going off-track and a way to prevent PG surprises in the form of limited car choice. The exception is Zakstunts, which focusus on freestyle driving, allowing crazy improvized stunts and powergear and offroad driving and car picking. That competition is the most popular one. Presumably the people racing there race there because they like this style.

So I guess my question is: if people want a competition with the rules proposed in this thread, and they clearly do given the length of this thread, is Zakstunts really the place to make that happen?

I think the reason is that even those who do not like the rules understand that Zakstunts is by far the most prestigious Stunts competition. Winning a Zakstunts race (the main scoreboard not GAR) cannot be compared to anything else in that regards.

@Matei I think @KyLiE said 6.5 hours in the 28 days of competition so it's less than 1% of the month. Don't make it personal. The worst arrogancy is when a pipsqueak says i.e. "I did it in half an hour" when you clearly know (after many years in the game and the community) that it was a work of many hours. Somehow some pipsqueaks (and not pipsqueaks too I can see now) feels better saying they invests almost no time racing.  That attitude deserves some insults but you only get from me a "poor guy".

I saw the same attitude or speech in other gamer communities where you build the expertise playing and playing. These kind of arrogant commentaries aren't welcome. Let him spend his time as he wishes.

I don't think anybody here claims to be able to do a top replay in like 30 minutes. How much time it really takes to do a good replay varies though. Sometimes you get a useful magic carpet after a few minutes and other times you can try forever and it just does not happen. That is Stunts. 

Also curious about Mazda 787B, Lada Niva and Citroën XM. I have not tried any but I feel they'd be nice novelties.

I'd love to see the Citroën XM in competition! It's a well-balanced car that could be a good representative of the "proper slow car" tier (example stablemates: Trueno, Thunderbird).

Idea: all cars available and no rules.

There is a way to make all cars available: set a fixed -100% coefficient to anything outside the 16-car list for the year. I'm not really joking: this might actually be a useful way to keep cars away from the competition proper while still allowing people to drive for fun with them.

Is a fixed -100% coefficient sufficient to keep all the "cheat cars" at bay? I haven't tested them much so I am unsure how fast they really are.

I don't believe we should discuss the rules for 2026 in this thread.

However, I made a detailed post in the "Cars and rules for 2026" thread. It goes without saying that I cannot misuse  the rules discussion as a tool to burry the hatched between us.

Hence, I've tried to analyze the PG problem as objectively as possible. Though no one is ever totally objective. 

This post was an attempt at an objective analysis of the interplay between car coefficients and power-gear cars.

Since those pipsqueaks who raised the issue left the competition the analysis seems obsolete.

[If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:]

If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:

Once a car wins a race, it becomes unavailable for the rest of the season.

We can then discuss whether a pool of 16 cars remains sufficient under this rule.

your proposal looks fresh as a compromise measure, in general I support it. but it is even better to use patched versions from Daniel3D, then you won't have to change anything at all

Thank you for bringing the discussion back to a mature level — I truly appreciate it. 🙂

Please allow me to share how I see the situation. I openly acknowledge that the combination of PG cars and the car coefficient system gives me an advantage. My strongest skill in stunts is, without question, the ability to manage a PG lap where others cannot — which explains the high number of unexpected PG surprises.

Now, let's address the question of whether we should introduce rules to limit or even ban PG cars. From my perspective, pipsqueaks have different preferences:

• Some enjoy driving PG laps — I'm one of them. I'm fascinated by the strategic side of stunts: a great stunts map is full of inventive tricks, and I love discovering them and finding the best car–track combination.
  
• Others simply enjoy watching PG laps because they're spectacular — my ZCT 284 Corvette lap is a good example.
  
• Many casual competitors are indifferent to PG cars.
  
• And finally, there are pipsqueaks who actively dislike their presence — you and Alain fall into this group.
  

I respect all of these viewpoints. As humans, we all have different preferences. What matters less to me is Kevin Pickell's original intention over 35 years ago. If what began as a bug now provides enjoyment to several of us, its technical origin doesn't necessarily mean it should be removed. What matters most is what the community thinks — and that's difficult to gauge, given the limited participation in this discussion.

We also shouldn't overlook an important point raised by @dreadnaut: Zakstunts is currently the only active competition that features both free rules and power-gear laps. Those who prefer OWOOT driving already have several other competitions available. This is a key consideration.

Putting aside the fact that I personally benefit from the current format, I believe that in an ideal scenario, all cars should have an equal chance of winning. If we agree that's a worthwhile goal, the next challenge is figuring out how to get there. @HerrNove mentioned some justified concerns regarding my proposal so we should keep the brainstorming going.

It's not working properly on my end. It's working in slow motion. Thank you for the effort.

I have a simpler solution! Download the .trk (qr coded with buildings on the terrain for each pipsqueak) from a PHP website, upload the replay on the website before a countdown ends. The times are automatically updated on a result page. What do you think of that?

I am not available in september for a live event. But I'll manage a live race project proof of concept aiming for the upcoming Stunts UNiversal Timezone Series during the holidays in october! from the 18th of october to the 3rd of november. This is a community project any Stunts pipsqueak interested at can take part, see the existing topic on France Stunts subforum.

https://youtu.be/QKI2mqj_tIU

Unfortunately your method does not work. A pipsqueak with bad intentions could prepare a lap in advance and then exchange the track part in the replay file. Consequently, you may as well make the race trust based and avoid the hassle.

[a single, straightforward line of reasoning]

@Alain il professore:

This thread contains quite a lot of text for what is essentially a single, straightforward line of reasoning:

• Observation: Argammon wins a higher share of PG races than most other top pipsqueaks.
• Fact: Alain does not like Argammon.
• (2+3) --> Develop arguments suggesting: Winning PG races does not demonstrate skill --> Therefore, Argammon's championship has little value.
• (2+3) --> Develop arguments suggesting: Winning with a PG car is detrimental to the community (e.g., creates perceived unfairness, may discourage newcomers).

If framed this way, the discussion would be more concise and transparent.

I'd also note that "spotting patterns" is only useful if those patterns are interpreted correctly. In this case, the percentage of PG wins in a season depends not only on tracks, but also on the car coefficients and the mix of participating drivers.

• Example – ZCT 288: @KyLiE showed that a Corvette PG lap was possible, but its coefficient was too low compared to the Oxia. --> Had the Corvette's coefficient been slightly higher, we might have seen another PG win.

[If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:]

1) It's entirely reasonable that @Victor Narl (and Alain) prefer cars to stay on the tarmac rather than spending excessive time on the grass. It's also perfectly valid to propose rule changes to address this concern.

What I find—speaking as neutrally as possible—unhelpful is blending the discussion of potential rule changes with accusations of cheating. As long as pipsqueaks comply with the current ZakStunts rules, they are not cheating. That may sound obvious, but it's worth stating clearly.

2) It's important to understand the majority view. Do we have a genuine consensus? We should be careful not to assume that the loudest voices automatically represent the majority. That may or may not be the case.

3) I agree that pipsqueaks skilled with PG cars currently have an advantage—myself included. For a balanced distribution of wins, PG cars should ideally win around 4 out of 16 tracks.

If the community agrees that PG wins should be limited, here's my proposal:

Once a car wins a race, it becomes unavailable for the rest of the season.

We can then discuss whether a pool of 16 cars remains sufficient under this rule.



PS:

For instance, https://imgur.com/ajg8k3L.png in 2003, I found all the PG shortcuts and shared them with my 5 team members. It was one of the few races with a power gear of the whole year and everyone in the scoreboard used it. It was fair competition. Now in 2025 it's 6 months on PG and 3% of pipsqueaks using it take all the wins.

I remember that differently, but it is not important regarding the current discussion.