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He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple.

Yes, this was the zct243 but not always was like this. The point of the video is to show no matter the effort I did or the crazy tricks I tryied, he beated me with a simplier but perfect drive that was the best choice.

Can we stop this silly discussion?

It was never a discussion from me. So no hard feelings from my part. This is an exchange of point of view and opinions. There is no tier list of opinions . CTG said a valid point in my list about akoss' performance. I see good will in the comments of this thread so we can keep doing and sharing lists!

Sorry for not being clear. What I tried suggesting was that we stop our discussion about whether I belong in tier A or S. Whereas I put more weight on (somewhat) object measures such as the Folyami rating (Me->Tier S), direct clashes (Ayrton, Gutix -> tier S), the medal table (Duplode ->Tier S, MidiAN ->one tier down), or a combination of those (Renato->Tier S), you look at replays and subjectively decide which ones you like best. We are not going to reach an agreement here, but -as mentioned- it is fine to agree to disagree. You are of course free to continue discussing the tiers with other pipsqueaks as long as you please. 

Regarding the replay you posted, there is little doubt that Duplode is one of the best OWOOT pipsqueaks in history. But even the top pipsqueaks have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not like Duplode is better than you on every possible type of track.
 
Finally, I would like to point out that even the "track" issue is subtle. As an example, consider someone saying "pipsqueak X is best at power-gear". What does this really mean? Even here, we have to distinguish between

• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is easy and the race is about finding the last milliseconds. https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT287 is a good example for this.
• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is extremely difficult. Here the most important issue is to complete a power-gear lap where others fail, see https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT284 for example
• Tracks where doing a power-gear lap is easy but that hide incredible but difficult shortcuts that upon completion give a pipsqueak the upper edge, https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT260 is a prime example for this. (How you cannot admire this trick is beyond me. If Ayrton did it, it would be the most magical trick in stunts history.)

Of course, you could add more categories and thereby make the list even more fine grained. My point is that it is not the same pipsqueak who is the best in all possible categories. The same is true for the many different types of NON-PG tracks.

This will be my last post on this topic for a while as I will be away travelling. So see you at the end of ZCT292.

What I can promise is that I am not going to submit a maxed out replay, meaning that I will only be able to win if I find tricks or shortcuts that the competitors do not. But tricks and shortcuts are what I love about Zakstunts. Spending half an hour to max out a corner is what I find extremely boring.

All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective.

Of course, that's the meaning. This doesn't make it any less important. To show and to know our personal subjectivety in a tier format. It's important to know how we think and how we see each other. There won't be a wrong tier list and also there can be more than one tier list from every of us since we can have many subjectiveties or points of view according to the many virtues a pipsqueak's performance can be catalogued.

Every opinion,always is made from facts and from subjectivety. We should fear an IA if it developes subjectivety... or not. But how it works my opinion here? I know I can beat you at any time as I also know you can beat me at any time. I can't say the same with Duplode. This video is the best way to explain my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8JXL2gFTo

He is faster than you "on the road" and you are doing more tricks. Since there are not many tricks on this track he wins. It's actually pretty simple. Can we stop this silly discussion?

(...)

What is good of this tier tool is to make it easy the personal point of view, the feeling or impressions about ourselves and the rest. That's not good or bad, it's the truth from every of us.

I agree with Argammon when he says he's in a better shape than in 2001 or 2003. I think, however, he overrates his performance, his without doubt excellent performance. Nobody can say some tricks he showed aren't excellent. I don't see his current (2023-now) performance in the next level. What is the next level for me? When you watch replays and you say more than once "how he thought it could be possible? And then he did it". There are two steps here, watching the map or while doing a replay you can imagine tricks/shortcuts and the other step is performing them. The first is pure knowledge of the game and the later may be influenced by time, by will power, determination, skills and more.
Anyway, sometimes is harder to rate ourselves than others. Sometimes we overrate or underrate ourselves, this is natural and it's ok.

(...)

I wrote that I do not like blowing my own horn and that is true. Hence, I am not going to continue doing it. All I will say is that your "measurements" are highly subjective. Because you, Alanrotoi, rate the replays of your personal top four more highly than mine you conclude that they are a tier above me.

There is no possible way for me to "refute" such a subjective view. Hence, let us just agree to disagree.


Edit: To clarify, I don't have a problem that we disagree on these subjective "tiers". It is fine with me that you do not see me in your personal top 4. I am just pointing out that our rankings are  of a very subjective nature and that I do not agree with yours. 

[highly]

I was afraid that a thread like this would not end well.

@MiDiaN: Regarding your comment "Still, you've placed me in mid-B rank after KyLiE?", I did write that I did not rank the pipsqueaks within each tier.* Indeed, I started alphabetically with the first few before abandoning the idea because it took too much time.

Other than that, you are raising some valid points, but the issue is subtle. I mentioned our 9-1 score because it covers your entire Zakstunts career. Hence, our direct comparison is a very valid benchmark.

The question is how far we can stretch that kind of argument if one of the pipsqueaks is either "past prime" or not racing hard. One could argue that such a pipsqueak was much better in the past. Duplode is a good example in this context.

The problem with this line of argumentation is that it can be used as a killer argument because it can always be claimed that you only won because the competitors did not try hard. There is no way to refute that point. Hence, our "rankings" are highly subjective.

Your 9-1 score against Kylie is a valid argument of course. But does that mean that with a single race win you should be in the same tier as pipsqueaks who won one or more championships? Perhaps, or perhaps not. It seems that there are not enough tires to catch all the subtleties.

*If you must know, I think that you are the strongest pipsqueak in tier 3.    I would rank the tier 1 pipsqueaks as follows (please don't shoot me!): Ayrton, Argammon, Duplode, Gutix, Renato.

I should also explain a bit my impressions. Maybe I'll make alive stream about it if I have the time butblet's write some thoughts. (...)

Every tier has different levels inside, so a tier is mor like a wide row of similarities but not always means same performances.

- the "S" big 4: they are Ayrton and then the rest. Maybe Renato Biker is a bit over Gutix and Duplode but it's hard to analyze only watching their replays, you had to live the moment and I think I wasn't contemporary to Renato's prime for example so I can't be 100% sure about it. What I don't have doubt is that they are over the rest of us. (...)

And here I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I do not feel comfortable blowing my own trumpet, but let me explain why I disagree:

In the old days, I am clearly not on the top tier. (So I agree with CTG's ranking in that sense). However, also considering 2023-2025 I think that I am. I do not base my assessment "only" on the Folyami rankings which are at least somewhat objective, but also on replays.

Before 2023, most of my replays were rather mundane. I did not produce any lap on the level of the following examples (not exhaustive):

https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT260 (An impossible trick)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT264
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT280 (First flight of that type in competition)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT284 (Flight is repeated showing it is not a fluke but a tool)
https://zak.stunts.hu/tracks/ZCT289

Yes, all of these examples are power-gear laps. But power gear is an important part of Zakstunts. 

I hope that my ranking does not offend anybody, it just reflects my personal opinion. It is also worth pointing out that I did not rank the pipsqueaks within each tier. I focused on Zakstunts RH results. If I had taken NORH into account, Bonzai Joe and Seeker1982 would be in the top tier and Renato would drop a tier.

My ranking is mostly based on Duplode's Historical Folyami ranking (https://scr.stunts.hu/folyami.html) with a few adaptions: You cannot view this attachment.

Notably:

• MiDiaN: According to Folyami, he should be in tier 2. However, I do not feel that a single win is enough to justify that position. If he wins next year's championship, he moves up one tier on my ranking. (PS: I find it a bit strange that MiDiaN is on the same tier as I on Alanrotoi's ranking when our current direct-clash score is 9-1.)
• Alain and Bonzai Joe: Should be on tier 3 according to Folyami. I moved them up one tier because they are champions and because the Folyami ratings are likely not precise for the early years.

Quick edit: I just noticed that I dropped Bismarck into tier D by accident. He does not have enough Zakstunts races to be ranked properly. The same is true for Fdziera.

Hello Stunters,

Welcome to ZCT292!
A track around and over couple islands near land shore that is GAR "friendly"   and PG "nightmare" .
I dare you all to be "Skilious" on this track

(looking forward for how skills are shown until the "finish line")

About the PG "nightmare": I will take the challenge but I am not sure an Indy or Acura PG lap is competitive. Let's see. 

[In any case, how could the system be "fixed"?]

I should not have a say about the rules for 2026, at least not for those affecting the season's standing.

But I thought I would mention that I agree with @MiDiaN and @HerrNove that it feels strange that it is sometimes beneficial to voluntarily stay just below the 1-bonus-point threshold. However, I also agree with @Duplode that the effect  likely does not have much practical relevance over a whole season.

In any case, how could the system be "fixed"?

It would be an easy fix to either remove carryover altogether or to allow carryover for all hours. As hinted at  by @dreadnaut and @Duplode this would remove the strategic metagame almost entirely. In particular if all hours carry over one could as well just track the total position time over the whole season.

Alternatively, quoting @MiDiaN's idea here, it may make sense to only award the big pot if a pipsqueak obtains 528 hours without the help of carryover. I must say that I am leaning towards this idea. Two bonus points are massive, essentially meaning that a second place plus the bonus is better than a first place together with just 0.5 bonus points.

Thanks for the positive replies guys, I'm touched! It was an honor to race against every one of you.

[What does that mean?]

After securing my second ZakStunts championship title, I've decided to "retire" at the end of this season. At the moment, I feel like stepping away for good — but I don't want to impose unnecessary constraints on myself, which is why I've chosen the word semi.

What does that mean? Like many of you, I'm in a stage of life with growing responsibilities, and I don't need additional stress factors. I won't be competing for any championship in any competition. To avoid the temptation of overcommitting, I won't take part in the first couple of ZakStunts races next season.

That said, I may still join a race here and there if the track, car, rules, or circumstances appeal to me and I happen to have some free time. The key word here is fun. If it's not enjoyable and starts to feel like a chore, then it's not worth doing.

A few words about the community When I returned at the end of 2022, @alanrotoi told me the community had changed for the better and was a very different place than before. He was absolutely right.\footnote{I admit that at times I slipped back into old patterns, and for that I'd like to apologize.}

Unfortunately, this season hasn't felt as harmonious. It's not my intention to point fingers at anyone, but I do believe things could improve if we all kept a few simple principles in mind:

• Respect differences of opinion. Disagreements are natural, especially about "rules" or "systems." But it's important not to present personal opinions as facts. For example, it's fine to argue why and how the PTB system could be improved, but calling it "broken" is not helpful. And sometimes, one simply has to accept that the majority does not share or agree with one's own opinion.. This happens to me a lot because I'm not A4 after all. 
  
  
  • Celebrate each other's achievements. When I came back, I noticed how @Duplode consistently congratulated pipsqueaks after each event, recognizing their achievements/efforts month after month. This simple gesture is polite, encouraging, and helps build a positive atmosphere. Yet some top pipsqueaks rarely, if ever, congratulate even the winner. Why not? It takes less than a minute, and it makes a big difference.
  
  Last but not least I would like to thank my team Rolling Stunts. This team accepted me with open arms and has been a great place to be. That our team worked so well is the main reason why I managed to sustain two full seasons of Zakstunts, something which I never did in the old days.

Great analysis. Thanks @Clairwill!

Clairwil is right, though

I should have known that ladies are always right I am a married man, after all.

MiDiaN should be the moral champion, but since he was a pro driver already in the last century I guess I can enjoy my amateur title with clean consciousness! ZakStunts 2025 was my first Stunts tournament ever, and actually the first racing tournament I ever took part in.

On a different topic, the masters really seem set to fight from the first minute this month. I can imagine Argammon is striving to get the mathematical certainty of his championship as soon as possible, and his competitors are hard at work to delay the party. Given the mechanics of PTB and its Fibonacci-based coefficients, the title might be mathematically awarded in a strange moment like the dead of night of a random Tuesday...

This happened today. If I am not mistaken, MiDiaN cannot reach 2 bonus points anymore which settles the case. 

Up until this point in the season, I have around 250 more leading hours compared to Argammon, excluding the carryover. With the carryover system Argammon is tied with me in PTB despite doing less.

I will exploit this system next season if it stays.

Is that so? If there was no carryover you "earned" about 115 hours more than I did. However, that number has to be taken with a grain of salt: For example when a pipsqueak passed the 1-bonus point threshold then you do not have an incentive to steal hours from him. There are many such strategic interactions.

We all look at this differently. From my perspective it would be very strange if I became the Zakstunts champion after trailing several points on the Season's standing table (PTB excluded). Put differently, fortunately -as far as I know- it did not yet happen that somebody became champion only due to having earned the most LTB/PTB.

Do not get me wrong, I know very well why the system exists. The fear is that pipsqueaks would otherwise send very few replays before the deadline making the competition look inactive. However, I do think that the effect is too strong. I would reduce the bonus points from 2/1/0.5 to 1/0.5/0.25 PTB*. In that case you can remove the carryover if you wish.

*Rationale: If a pipsqueak wins all 12 pipsqueaks but does not earn a single PTB point that pipsqueak still deserves the championship title in my opinion.

I haven't read nearly everyone's posts yet. But I would like to offer my perspective here:

There are multiple running Stunts competitions. All but one have some sort of limitation on going off-track and a way to prevent PG surprises in the form of limited car choice. The exception is Zakstunts, which focusus on freestyle driving, allowing crazy improvized stunts and powergear and offroad driving and car picking. That competition is the most popular one. Presumably the people racing there race there because they like this style.

So I guess my question is: if people want a competition with the rules proposed in this thread, and they clearly do given the length of this thread, is Zakstunts really the place to make that happen?

I think the reason is that even those who do not like the rules understand that Zakstunts is by far the most prestigious Stunts competition. Winning a Zakstunts race (the main scoreboard not GAR) cannot be compared to anything else in that regards.

@Matei I think @KyLiE said 6.5 hours in the 28 days of competition so it's less than 1% of the month. Don't make it personal. The worst arrogancy is when a pipsqueak says i.e. "I did it in half an hour" when you clearly know (after many years in the game and the community) that it was a work of many hours. Somehow some pipsqueaks (and not pipsqueaks too I can see now) feels better saying they invests almost no time racing.  That attitude deserves some insults but you only get from me a "poor guy".

I saw the same attitude or speech in other gamer communities where you build the expertise playing and playing. These kind of arrogant commentaries aren't welcome. Let him spend his time as he wishes.

I don't think anybody here claims to be able to do a top replay in like 30 minutes. How much time it really takes to do a good replay varies though. Sometimes you get a useful magic carpet after a few minutes and other times you can try forever and it just does not happen. That is Stunts. 

Also curious about Mazda 787B, Lada Niva and Citroën XM. I have not tried any but I feel they'd be nice novelties.

I'd love to see the Citroën XM in competition! It's a well-balanced car that could be a good representative of the "proper slow car" tier (example stablemates: Trueno, Thunderbird).

Idea: all cars available and no rules.

There is a way to make all cars available: set a fixed -100% coefficient to anything outside the 16-car list for the year. I'm not really joking: this might actually be a useful way to keep cars away from the competition proper while still allowing people to drive for fun with them.

Is a fixed -100% coefficient sufficient to keep all the "cheat cars" at bay? I haven't tested them much so I am unsure how fast they really are.