The announcement

[Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister]

Arriving back from my Debrecen trip, I'm feeling an urge to post here.

The long awaited announcement has finally been written by 'Cax The God' (CTG).

First of all, I contemn all such kind of multiple registrations in any kind of online racing games and internet communities. I can hardly imagine how one would have the idea of doing so, since fortunately I have only one but strong character.

There is one thing you should know: I knew about Dottore's and Navras' being ghosts since August 2006. A very strange situation (unrelated to Stunts) forced CTG to admit this to me. Since then, I had several reasons not to tell the community the whole thing, for example a.) I just simply did not care at all. It was CTG's matter, I did not want to deal with it or intervene. b.) Since I wasn't an active driver that time (and seldom was I by today as well), I wasn't affected. (Only my private life was affected a bit, CTG went to know some new information about me which wouldn't have been known by him otherwise, since until August 2006, 'Dottore' and me was chatting on msn.) c.) Though it was never fixed by us, when I returned to race occassionally, both CTG and Dottore did not overtake me together on any tracks. d.) I still insist on my opinion, it was only one of the ghost factories on the scoreboard.

Now, this factory is dead. Maybe it's only an impossible daydream, but I hope others will follow to do the admittance if there are. Just an innocent remark, but according to human psychology, those who are saying the hardest words on CTG are potential ghost creators. Many many people tend to shout the loudest on men having the same kind of bad features or commiting the same kind of mistakes.

And there is a way not to be affected by the ghost creators. You have the chance to beat the ghosts all. And in this case, you need not to care about how many ghosts are on the scoreboard. I was racing against CTG's ghost factory on an other online site. And I managed to beat him and his whole ghost factory there. So if you really mind that there are ghosts on the scoreboard, you have the possibility to solve the situation: beat the ghosts all. And for the community? It wasn't killed or damaged by CTG. The community was and is perishing itself.

I'm also sceptic about the reborn of the community. Some years ago, the pipsqueaks were much more communicative. They were commenting on the forum about the races, attended the chatroom each evening, the logs were also saved. There were live races. There were international Stunts meetings. But with this kind of pipsqueaks today we have, who are having only 10-20 posts per month (accumulated summary for all of the pipsqueaks), who rather just sit in front of the monitor, pushing the buttons without saying boo to the other, the case is very different... oh, let me just remember... the championship was much more exciting when we knew each other, talked to each other all night, commenting on each other's times and replays, there were also online results announcement by Zak... I seriously think that there's absolutely no possibility to resurrect the community to the 2002-05 level. The current generation are not as social and enthusiastic as we were.

CTG, by having a multiple personality here, accidentally rather kept the community from falling into pieces and dying. On some tracks (even at the most popular competitions), how many pipsqueaks would have been there without CTG? Let alone the forum and the number of the posts there. So when we/you are trying to rebuild the community, a very active person (and his other characters) will be missing. With this, we/you will really face a hard time to do so.

CTG's announcement and decision do not affect my registration and activity here. You all, have a nice evening.

[Mark L. Rivers]

Just an innocent remark, but according to human psychology, those who are saying the hardest words on CTG are potential ghost creators. Many many people tend to shout the loudest on men having the same kind of bad features or commiting the same kind of mistakes.

I don't know if we have already talk in the past, Akoss, anyway I start to do it with the maximum respect due to your seniority in this community. Even if reading your posts in last years made me sure we are persons quite different, I think that a sane dialogue can be, at least about some arguments. And having in mind this one, I have to say that I'm only partially agree with your thoughts quoted above.

I appreciate the famous aphorism that says that the defects a man can't bear in the others are those he has in itself. But we are talking about a particular matter. We are talking about the trust. As I said privately to another member of this community, when you lose the trust by others for a single your deceptive act, you could chase it for a long time before you re-catch it. But if you abuse of the trust of your friends for years, when the thing comes up, maybe you can't re-catch it for many, many years. Maybe never. That's the nude truth about the trust.

And I'm absolutely sure that if a man appreciate the trust, he simply can't desire to become a callous liar decepting the others.

And for the community? It wasn't killed or damaged by CTG. The community was and is perishing itself.

I'm also sceptic about the reborn of the community. Some years ago, the pipsqueaks were much more communicative. They were commenting on the forum about the races, attended the chatroom each evening, the logs were also saved. There were live races. There were international Stunts meetings. But with this kind of pipsqueaks today we have, who are having only 10-20 posts per month (accumulated summary for all of the pipsqueaks), who rather just sit in front of the monitor, pushing the buttons without saying boo to the other, the case is very different... oh, let me just remember... the championship was much more exciting when we knew each other, talked to each other all night, commenting on each other's times and replays, there were also online results announcement by Zak... I seriously think that there's absolutely no possibility to resurrect the community to the 2002-05 level. The current generation are not as social and enthusiastic as we were.

Effectively, I didn't say that Peter Varga killed the Stunts community. I said only he risked to inflict a mortal shot to it.
I'm quite agree with you that the main cause of the slow decline is the poor comments about the races, the replays, the times. In a topic I started (http://forum.stunts.hu/index.php?topic=2443.0), never commented even if it has seen 220 times, I said more or less the same. I said:

"Too much rarely drivers express their impressions about the track (for example about its crucial passages) and the races (for example their feelings about the challenge in act or about their thoughts about the final results).
It's true, the members of this community, like any other community, talk about a quite large number of topics, but I think that the comments about the races are too poor. Everyone has logically different interests and sure there's the pleasure (someone more, someone a bit less) to talk about that. But, I mean, we are here because we are Stunts [r]acers. It's the passion towars the game and the races that lead us to join in this community. So I think that everyone should focus a bit more on the races, not to let that passing weeks before public own thought about a track or a race. Otherwise the members of this community will live only expecting special events (as ZCT100) or mainly replying when "spammers" write.
Real sports lives on comments, reactions, dazedness watching amazing challenge and fantastic results. The passion is supplied by that. Since we are mainly and fundamentally [r]acers, the thing should be the same things even for us and our little world.
It's strange these args come from a retired or, maybe better, an "occasional" driver as I am. But that's my thought. I only hope that my passion, so faced by lack of time, won't be higher than the passion of regular drivers.
When the passion decreases, it could be really dangerous because keeping high the desire to race becomes very difficult, with logical consequences even on other community's activities..."

I continue to think the same thing.
But I equally convinced that a community is based on the trust. And what Peter Varga did can really have a devastating effect, because what he did will lead everyone to watch the others, above all the future newbies, with a big caution, with a deleterious suspect. This is the big damage Peter Varga did at this community. And there's no way to repair it.

[Duplode]

Akoss raised some important issues here. No matter how much we wish to turn the page, some soul-searching is unavoidable if we intend to strengthen the community (or, if you find my tone preposterous, it is equally true that I still am somewhat unsettled by the recent events).

And there is a way not to be affected by the ghost creators. You have the chance to beat the ghosts all. And in this case, you need not to care about how many ghosts are on the scoreboard. I was racing against CTG's ghost factory on an other online site. And I managed to beat him and his whole ghost factory there. So if you really mind that there are ghosts on the scoreboard, you have the possibility to solve the situation: beat the ghosts all. And for the community? It wasn't killed or damaged by CTG. The community was and is perishing itself.

There is some truth in that evaluation - but only to the extent it applies to numbers on a scoreboard. But when the ghosts stop being mere names attached to a replay, acquire fake personalities and start to interact with pipsqueaks, we have a real threat to community spirit. Case in point: the incidents during the final races of USC 07-08 (for details, review Mark's first post here).

I'm also sceptic about the reborn of the community. Some years ago, the pipsqueaks were much more communicative. They were commenting on the forum about the races, attended the chatroom each evening, the logs were also saved. There were live races. There were international Stunts meetings. But with this kind of pipsqueaks today we have, who are having only 10-20 posts per month (accumulated summary for all of the pipsqueaks), who rather just sit in front of the monitor, pushing the buttons without saying boo to the other, the case is very different... oh, let me just remember... the championship was much more exciting when we knew each other, talked to each other all night, commenting on each other's times and replays, there were also online results announcement by Zak... I seriously think that there's absolutely no possibility to resurrect the community to the 2002-05 level. The current generation are not as social and enthusiastic as we were.

The observations are true, and the "not as social" bit certainly applies to myself too. The situation, however, is more complex than just a matter of just pushing buttons without chatting. For instance, rather than saying that later generations are too silent, I would argue that it was the Golden Generation which was absolutely exceptional in terms of enthusiasm and liveliness - so much that later pipsqueaks were able to immerse themselves in the community without much "effort" at socializing. In fact, there is a strong case for saying that, strictly speaking, after the Golden Generation there were no other generations at all.

CTG, by having a multiple personality here, accidentally rather kept the community from falling into pieces and dying. On some tracks (even at the most popular competitions), how many pipsqueaks would have been there without CTG? Let alone the forum and the number of the posts there. So when we/you are trying to rebuild the community, a very active person (and his other characters) will be missing. With this, we/you will really face a hard time to do so.

That is true, without qualifications - no matter how hard it may be for us to take it. Certainly the disappearance of a single member does not present an insurmountable barrier, but the rest of us will need to raise our involvements somewhat to fill in the void (of course, it could be argued that such a need existed much before the scandal, but the point still holds).

[zaqrack]

I'm also sceptic about the reborn of the community. Some years ago, the pipsqueaks were much more communicative. They were commenting on the forum about the races, attended the chatroom each evening, the logs were also saved. There were live races. There were international Stunts meetings. But with this kind of pipsqueaks today we have, who are having only 10-20 posts per month (accumulated summary for all of the pipsqueaks), who rather just sit in front of the monitor, pushing the buttons without saying boo to the other, the case is very different... oh, let me just remember... the championship was much more exciting when we knew each other, talked to each other all night, commenting on each other's times and replays, there were also online results announcement by Zak... I seriously think that there's absolutely no possibility to resurrect the community to the 2002-05 level. The current generation are not as social and enthusiastic as we were.

The observations are true, and the "not as social" bit certainly applies to myself too. The situation, however, is more complex than just a matter of just pushing buttons without chatting. For instance, rather than saying that later generations are too silent, I would argue that it was the Golden Generation which was absolutely exceptional in terms of enthusiasm and liveliness - so much that later pipsqueaks were able to immerse themselves in the community without much "effort" at socializing. In fact, there is a strong case for saying that, strictly speaking, after the Golden Generation there were no other generations at all.

Lets not forget the change in circumstances and the surrounding world.
First of all: we have to admit it, Stunts is old. Those who still play with this game can be defined quite closely in a given age bracket - with some refreshing exceptions, like Aburaf, and also relatives/children of other pipsqueaks. This was discussed several times earlier, but it will always put a limit on the available and interested pipsqueaks.

Second:If 10 very good friends go together on a 10 day trip, they can keep talking and discussing with eachother continuously. If they extend the trip to 10 weeks, I am sure sometimes they are out of things to say/discuss. Now, here we are talkin about 10 YEARS. OF course discussions can be kept alive by external impacts - namely others joining the community from outside, and introducing new points and views through their personalities - but we did not have this impact in the past years.

Third:I would also say the existence of social networks on the web have also a very huge negative effect on the community. People discuss their personal and daily matters on these sites, and a few take it over to a different forum. About chatrooms: I don`t think I have joined any chatroom in the past 5 years. I keep contact with my friends on Facebook/Tumblr/Skype/etc, and have no interest in meeting new persons online. Times and habits change.

Fourth: I would be very sad if the community would be resurrected to the 2002-2005 level. That was a magical period of my life and I want to keep it in my memory as such a unique and wonderful era. Some of the friendships and influences I received through the Stunts community during those times have changed my life forever. Nothing like that could or should be repeated again - for me, because it would make the magic disappear. This is in line with what Duplode has replied. It was exceptional, and one of its kind.

Fifth: Stunts meetings. This relates to point one. Earlier the main reasons not to attend a WSM were financial. Now we have a blocking issue much harder to overcome and solve: time.

Sixth: The previous point also applies on site management. I should not be the one leading the main competition of the Stunts community. I did it for 10 years and I am frankly a bit tired to do so. Change needs to happen to secure the required progress - see Microsoft`s case for example, who are currently on the verge of a decline due to their own size and importance. I have very good and interesting (and motivating!) plans what to turn ZakStunts into for the next years, but for that to happen, first I need to see a proper candidate for taking over the "duty" of ZakStunts. I just can`t see the candidate yet.
I was and am aware of the fact, that (for me at least) ZCT100 was the peak of ZakStunts, the point where it should have been stopped, to prevent a decline into boredom. I was strongly considering this option back then. But I decided to keep going forward, for the sake of community, not being able to see the successor of ZakStunts. Maybe I made the wrong choice, and should have stepped back to leave more place for others. I don`t know, only time can tell. Currently I feel, that for the sake of community I need to go on, even if I only operate on the very minimum level. 

And last, but not least: We should be more approachable. It is always easier to join and actively take part in a young and forming community. If a community has its history and long-time habits, its harder for external parties to get involved. We have a legacy of 10 years now, even the latest active generation has been with us since 4 years already. This includes friendships, history, but also tricks and tips required to become a successful pipsqueak. This must be very scary for newbies, requiring huge efforts to integrate and join our community - efforts which most of them are not committed to take. I have tried several methods in the past years to reduce this stress factor for newbies, but it it not easy.

[Oscar]

Hola, voy ha intentar dar mi punto de vista como novato acerca el presente y futuro de la comunidad stunts.
Como bien habéis dicho stunts ya tiene 20 años y la generación que jugo a stunts empieza a tener responsabilidades como trabajo, hijos y poco tiempo.
Esto puede significar que tenga menos tiempo para escribir en un foro o preparar una competición stunts.
Los foros requieren tiempo, igual que el chat. Verdad que la mi generación ya no va tanto al bar con los colegas? Creo que esta es la principal causa.
Que ofrece la comunidad y como podemos potenciar la participación?
Ofrece información precisa sobre stunts gracias a la wiki y el foro. Pero esta información es estática y no genera mucha participación
El foro y el chat son los actuales puntales para la participación pero requiere de tiempo...
facebook no es directamente un enemigo si no una manera distinta de crear grupos sociales y comunicarse, yo creo que integrar facebook en la comunidad seria un acierto, ya que seria la entrada a nuevos fans.
El chat, nunca he escrito nada... donde esta? quien hay? Es el AJAX chat donde nunca he visto a nadie? o es el foro? No tomen estas preguntas de manera destructiva sino constructiva.
Las competiciones! eso si que aporta participación, creo que deberíamos potenciar que la gente se apunte a las competiciones de manera facil y que no requiera de mucho tiempo.
Que más aporta novedades, pues a mi entender una de las ventajas principales de stunts, las pistas y los coches.
No echéis la culpa a los novatos, ya que seguimos siendo los mismos que jugamos hace 15 o 20 años a stunts pero con menos tiempo, la comunidad se tiene que adaptar a esta realidad y apostar por la participación vía competiciones y mensajes cortos tipo facebook.
Como hacerlo? Creando un nuevo portal Stunts mas directo y con mas contacto con las redes sociales existentes, con un buen repositorio de pistas y altas en competiciones! Y más potenciación a la participación, banners y dejar al usuario todo preparado para competir en 2 minutos!

Un sueño... quizá pero creo que esta es el camino a seguir.

------------------
Hello, I was trying to give my point of view as a rookie on the present and future of the community stunts.
As we have said 20 year-old stunts and stunts generation juice to start having work responsibilities, children and little time.
This may mean you have less time to write to a forum or make a racing stunts.
The forums require time, like chat. True that my generation is not so much the bar with colleagues? I think this is the main cause.
It offers the community and how we can enhance participation?
Provides accurate information about stunts through the wiki and forum. But this information is static and does not generate much participation
The forum and chat are the current mainstays for participation takes time but ...
facebook is not a direct enemy if in a different way of creating social groups and communicate, I think facebook community integration would be a success, as it would be the entry of new fans.
The chat, I've never written anything ... where is it? who is? AJAX is the chat I've never seen anyone? or is the forum? Do not take these questions in a destructive but constructive.
Competitions! So if that participation brings, I think we should empower people to sign up for competitions so easy and does not require much time.
Brings more news, because in my opinion one of the main advantages of stunts, tracks and cars.
Do not regret the blame to the novices, and we remain the same play 15 or 20 years stunts but with less time, the community has to adapt to this reality and focus on participation via competitions and facebook short messages.

How? Creating a new portal Stunts more direct and more contact with existing social networks, with a good repository of tracks and high in competitions! And more empowerment to participation, user banners and leave everything ready to compete in 2 minutes!

A dream ... maybe but I think this is the way forward.

[JTK]

I would also say the existence of social networks on the web have also a very huge negative effect on the community. People discuss their personal and daily matters on these sites, and a few take it over to a different forum. About chatrooms: I don`t think I have joined any chatroom in the past 5 years. I keep contact with my friends on Facebook/Tumblr/Skype/etc, and have no interest in meeting new persons online. Times and habits change.

So we've got to move to Facebook or anything else. Then we have to transfer all the knowledge from the forum to the Stunts Wiki. BUT: If there is a spammer, like here (who actually made me not write as much as I probably could, but that's my problem), then the Facebook messages will be too much. O.k., one could probably ignore posts...

Fourth: I would be very sad if the community would be resurrected to the 2002-2005 level.

Definitely! There already was a community when I came to the web Stunts races in 1998. At that time it was just a mailing list but there were many famous pipsqueaks from the 90s on it.  

Stunts meetings. (...) Now we have a blocking issue much harder to overcome and solve: time.

When I quit work I'll organize the next meeting (approx. in 37 years, it looks like I have to work until I'm 67 in Germany).

And last, but not least: We should be more approachable.

Ja. This may be easier in a Facebook environment, I guess.

BTW, I just got an e-mail from a former pipsqueak called Geovani a.k.a. Inavoeg who asked me for still active Stunts contests!   Start your engines, gentlemen!

[Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister]

To Mark: I also can't remember whether we talked before or not. But thanks for the comment, I accept your opinion, though mine is not too close to it.

First, I know that anything other can trigger such a harsh opinion on CTG, not only being a man with the same kind of bad qualities. That's why I only mentioned possible ghost factories. I did not want to pick up anybody without having a proof.

Maybe those who came to this site after January 2005 (when I announced my first and practically the real retirement as a serious pipsqueak) don't know that earlier I was a big ghost disinfector, who, maybe after having some very bad experiences on him (me), saw a ghost in anybody possible, and protested against them. Somehow this couldn't be removed from me later. New pipsqueaks coming with surprisingly fast improvement, fast learning of tricks (it took years for some of the top drivers too) and fast acquirement of our jargon (I remember shyly asking some of it at the chatroom), inherited features of a recently disappeared top driver... that kept me being somehow mistrustful. Now I don't consider having enemies here like in the past (like for example the old Team Orion), but nothing made me convinced about everything going clear here.

Partly because on other online game sites, it's the same. Multiple registrators (like CTG), hackers kill our game each time, wherever you find a popular place to play something. I accepted that it's part of the game. That's why I can't understand your such hostile attitude. It is not something unusual on the net what happened now here. Me, lacking deep informatics skills, had to make this settlement to enjoy staying here at least a little bit. I always remained a natural competitior everywhere, and still, I was and am competitive. So, if we want to have a 100% fair competition, we have to gather somewhere in a room to play there, even if it's Stunts or other game. This is the only place when trustfulness are guaranteed.

I was contemplating on the whole, and I tried to decide to which extent was this whole something fun, a game or just a strange constraint for CTG. We know that CTG is a person who is somewhere between a genius and an insane. And it's hard to remember seeing CTG happy to do this with us/you. This also puts the situation in an other point of view, so I think you shouldn't be that hard on CTG.

And Dottore wasn't a racing character in the past years. Even if he had killed the community (which is your opinion), we/you would have had about three years to bounce back from the mentioned USC case. And nothing happened in order to do so, the community was perishing even with CTG's ghosts not racing.

To the others, first it was relieving to read Duplode's words. The percentage of his partial agreement was something I expected from nobody here.

It was strange to read Zak's words, because his post did not really correspond with his previous post. After reading his feeling and hope to make this community reborn, I wouldn't have expected to read such excuse-like statements. When I talked about resurrection, I was thinking about unfolding the good old atmosphere, the enthusiasm which were the strongest between 2002 and 2005. I think the extent of participation mainly depends on the willpower. Time, work... well, Krys Toff attented the Danish international meeting with having a job, a wife and three children. Still, we could see him and we could party with him. Why? Because he really wanted to come. That's the real case, in my opinion. I also became older. Me, being in his (my) late twenties, became a worker, a commuter, if everything goes fine, I'll have my own flat in some weeks. But if an atmosphere had evolved in 2002-05 evolved again, I would still be an active member in the whole.

And the two things a.) saying that hard words on CTG because of killing the community b.) no will to reunite live, only a very little communication, not really dealing with the fate of community... how they can exist together? With this, 'he' just 'killed' a thing which does not really interest or inspire you.

The chatroom thing, it is partly true. Even I haven't been in any chatrooms in the past years. It's not so popular to use IRC these days. It's old fashioned. But somehow it kept the whole Stunts family together in the past. I talked even with the pipsqueaks I didn't really like. I was happy to be there. Today, yes, we have the Facebook, the msn, and still the Stunts Forum. And maybe yes, if we want to  recover from failing as a community, maybe we can use them to survive. It all depends on us.

[Chulk]

Time, work... well, Krys Toff attented the Danish international meeting with having a job, a wife and three children. Still, we could see him and we could party with him. Why? Because he really wanted to come. That's the real case, in my opinion.

That's just stupid. Do you really think I could travel to Europe just to meet you guys there, with 2 jobs, university, girlfriend and flat to care of? No, I couldn't even if I wanted it most than anything else.
I don't agree either about CTG killing the community but he sure hurt some people more than others (I'm sure many of us were suspicious about Silver Spirit and Dottore who was only racing successfully in USC, we're not THAT innocent, I think), not everybody has the same thoughts. It's a good thing he (Peter Varga) is trying to get his life back on track and I think he deserves any kind of help we can give him to solve his personal issues, but Peter Varga is not CTG. We must realize there is a different between or online selves and our flesh and bone selves. Of course some traits remain untouched, but some do not.
I don't know about CTG (still can't make my mind about that matter) but Peter Varga is a person who is having some troubles. I don't know about you, but I was taught to help people with problems as much as I could and so I will.

As for the community, I recently felt the call to come back and apparently so did Ivanoeg (I don't recall ever racing with him) so maybe this means something. If not a call from Stunts Valhalla at least it means those pipsqueaks that left are always coming back because this is what we are. People who enjoy playing 20YO games like stunts, monkey island, the one that gave our admin his nickname, Geoff's GP, Papyrus indycar, suppaplex, one setp beyond, one push and such. We can live because real life usually gets in the way, but when it gives us just a few extra mins to spend, we go back to our first love. So that, community will not die while some of us come back once in a while. Don't take competition level for community. It doesn't matter if the competition is strong or not, what matter is that most of us keep in touch (via whatever you choose)and know pretty good what's going on in others lives. And I somehow feel that once a member here, always a member here.

I'm going late for work, but I felt like I had to post this.

Regars!

[Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister]

Time, work... well, Krys Toff attented the Danish international meeting with having a job, a wife and three children. Still, we could see him and we could party with him. Why? Because he really wanted to come. That's the real case, in my opinion.

That's just stupid. Do you really think I could travel to Europe just to meet you guys there, with 2 jobs, university, girlfriend and flat to care of? No, I couldn't even if I wanted it most than anything else.

There are and were many pipsqueaks in South America as well. I did not want to make you feel that in my opinion, you have to come to Europe to meet us to be an appreciatedly enthusiastic Stunts driver, but you took my words this way I guess. But within a continent, and especially if it's Europe, it's not such a big deal to organize and/or attend a meeting, the yearly meetings between 2004-06 prove that. And in that case, my words in my previous post are still really true.

[Duplode]

Re: Akoss/Chulk, I feel that sort of argument leads neither way: it's just that people are able to (or, alternatively, willing to) get involved up to a certain point of real-life busyness, and past that point they aren't any more. Even Krys eventually became unable to send replays regularly. In a way, my thoughts about that are not far from Zak's "realist" observations above... except when it comes to his, so to say, "fears" of a re-enactment of 2002-2005 (or any other era, really) - even if the community blossomed again in a similar way we would never perceive it as the same thing, as we have changed a lot too  

---

P.S.: Mark has started another thread which can be useful to gather practical suggestions that may otherwise get lost amidst our "philosophical" reflections here.

[alanrotoi]

Well, I'm not mad with CTG. Sure, he did some wrong things like acuse me to create ghost, calling ghost to Ayrton, Chulk and Gutix. I left the community those times so I "couldn't hear" about that so it didn't hurt me. But I think These guys felt insulted by him.

I'm not agree about saying "I'm a bad person, I did this and this so I punish myself and I leave". That's a kid way or maybe coward. I think he should apologyse with Ayrton, Chulk, Gutix and all the people he insulted about their existance. Now maybe it is too late to that.

As I said I'm not mad with him, I would like to see him here. The thing he did, more than a real apologyse you/we wont receive but for me it's enough.

About the community, you can't maintain a building with non-existant columns. That's not the way and Akoss, don't change the subject about it because he created ghost since the golden age where we were a lot of people here. So it wasn't a way to save the community, it was a wrong thing.

Gutix and me are trying to rise up the community again setting up the 4dsL 2011 with a large advertising campaign in abandonware forums and we prepared a "Liga de Stunts" (Stunts League) facebook page. Soon I will invite all of you.

I hope he considerate to come back and face us and say what he have to say. We are not a tribunal, we are regular guys just like him. Maybe I'm a bit soft with it, but in the other hand it's impossible to do more.

PS: Sorry for my bad english

[zaqrack]

Don't take competition level for community. It doesn't matter if the competition is strong or not, what matter is that most of us keep in touch (via whatever you choose)and know pretty good what's going on in others lives. And I somehow feel that once a member here, always a member here.

Very well said, Chulk. Community and competition are -although tightly related- completely different

[zaqrack]

But within a continent, and especially if it's Europe, it's not such a big deal to organize and/or attend a meeting, the yearly meetings between 2004-06 prove that. And in that case, my words in my previous post are still really true.

It is a very huge deal to organize a meeting.

[Chulk]

Akoss: Sorry if it sounded as I took it personally, that was not the idea and I apologize if it seemed so. I admit saying your idea was stupid does sound a bit too aggressive but, trust me, it was not my intention. That being said, I move on to...
The other topic!
(Yes, I know I posted there earlier, don't mention it )

[JTK]

And I somehow feel that once a member here, always a member here.

So do I!