Car bonuses

[Cas]

I think what this tells is that it's really hard to provide a metric rule that can help fight PG-based laps without having a very strong impact in the use of PG cars as a whole. In other words, if any such measure is implemented, the Indy and maybe other PG cars would end up being virtually banned from ZakStunts.

If a track designer wishes to make sure that their track is not raced based on pure PG, the only way to pin point this issue is to specifically request this technique to not be used in the race and human verification would be needed to enforce this. What this means would have to be clear. For example, how many seconds the car can remain continuously at PG for the replay to be valid or should we ban the car achieving PG even for an instant?

Many times, heavy use of PG on a track does not ruin the race, the track remains interesting to race on and the natural car bonus drifting we currently use is enough to make some other cars remain competitive. I remember my 4:00am as having been one such case. I think it would have been a pity to ban the Indy or even PG in that race.

[Duplode]

Yeah, I think that's a good take. The only change I can think of right now that wouldn't have awful side effects would be, along the lines of what @Daniel3D said, raising the bonus penalty a bit, from 15% to 21% or so. Not sure on whether and how the current system can be tweaked to achieve that, though. (Merely raising the points recovered by car from 1% to 2% would bring the penalty to 30%, which is almost certainly too much.)

[Overdrijf]

I think there is an effect where PG cars profit (or not, depending on your viewpoint) from being surprises. If a car comes in first but not second or third it takes only half the penalty. So a surprise win sets the car back less than a full podium. The flip side is that if a car surprise wins only a few people got to race it, so I'd argue it's fair that the coefficient doesn't drop all the way down. If almost everyone mostly drove the Jaguar, that's still a jaguar race even if it didn't win.

But I also think there's another effect at play here: PG cars perform dramatically different depending on how hard people are chasing those lines. I think that's part of the inconsistency Duplode's graphs show. You can see this in Ayrton's mighty winning streak around 2008. The bonuses for PG cars keep dropping and dropping, Ayrton keeps winning and winning. It's not sustainable in the long run. Eventually he would have to have started winning more with other cars. But he disappeared before that switch happened. Maybe even partly because it would have to happen. Our bonuses change slower than they did then. If Doubleplusspeed have the same talent compared to the pack that Ayrton did they might be able to keep pulling PG surprises almost every race for another 2 years or so. But eventually the car bonuses settle in a place that accounts for their PG talent.

I think that also leads me to the two easiest "fixes", neither of which I would actually like to implement:
1 Revert the coefficient changes to +3% (or +2, or...) per non-winner to make the settling happen faster. We might get another Ayrton year, but it's just one year. It also means that next time "Ayrton" disappears the PG cars will become viable for mere mortals again more quickly.
2 Ask people to share their PG discoveries earlier. (The ZCT214 model, Gutix showed the Indy line during public days, I didn't post the Corvette lap publicly but I did post the time and some small hints for newer players. Although ZCT214 was probably obvious enough that it would have become a PG race at least among the pros anyway.) That's a massive ask. Your line is non-obvious enough that nobody else might find it and you get the win, but then you have to share it and make the whole thing a PG race for everybody just out of sportmanship. It also incentivizes last minute racing. Because if I don't find the good line near the first half of the race I can't really give everyone a chance to use it, can I?

So... I got nothing. We might just all have to start looking for PG lines extra hard. I hereby appoint Bonzai Joe as Cork's Crew's official PG-tracker. If I miss a PG surprise, that's his fault.

[Daniel3D]

I don't mind PG surprises. But with a slightly bigger bonus drop the effect doubles if an PG car gets an other opportunity quickly. That will hold it down for a while.
The downside is indeed that normal drivers like me can never drive the Indy in competition.

I will try to remedy that next race though.
Even if it is just for one race..

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On the other hand. My idea for the custom car championship came from this.
The custom cars are just an excuse. But the whole checkpoint system is designed to limit the freedom a bit. But still keep it fun..


But a track designer can use a checkpoint rule in his Zakstunts track. It has been done before.

[Cas]

From what Overdrijf said, I get again to my point, but from a different perspective: If people are currently concerned about PG surprises, that means that they are happening frequently, which means that the natural bonus drift of a PG car like the Indy is already adjusted for its PG capabilities and the car has been paying for this quality for quite some time. In other words, now the Indy is already practically banned unless you use it for a PG surprise, as there is no other way it provides a final competitive lap time because of the very low bonus. Making the bonus even worse would end up banning it for every use.

But there's already the problem here, whether the bonus or the bonus drift system is modified or not, that a moderated Porsche March Indy, not abusing of PG in a race, is currently totally unprofitable. How can we make it profitable and at the same time, not make it easier for PG surprises?  I ask this because I love the Indy.

So here is where I get again to my point. As far as I can see, there is no number-based way to do it. We have to qualitatively evaluate whether a PG surprise or PG abuse was done to separate these two cars that are the Indy.

[Overdrijf]

How can we make it profitable and at the same time, not make it easier for PG surprises?  I ask this because I love the Indy.

The easiest way might be to include a custom car "non-PG Indy", with both its weight (determines PG) and power curve slightly lowered or raised. Or, somewhat close, we have several custom F1 cars at this point...

[Cas]

I agree. That could be a good solution. True that occassional PG is fun too and it's sad to ban it, because it's a resource and it requires some skill like every other resource, but at least, this would protect the presence of an Indy-like car for everything else.

[alanrotoi]

Another way to help about PG surprises is to warn the pipsqueaks to try or theorize if the track they are about to race is possible to be race with a PG car. Also a persuasive message telling that teamwork may prevent surprises.

[Daniel3D]

How can we make it profitable and at the same time, not make it easier for PG surprises?  I ask this because I love the Indy.

The easiest way might be to include a custom car "non-PG Indy", with both its weight (determines PG) and power curve slightly lowered or raised. Or, somewhat close, we have several custom F1 cars at this point...

I was thinking the same. What about the mp4, Lola or Penske?

All other solutions are kinda useless. Knowing of is possible doesn't mean anything to me because i can't drive PG. So, surprise or not, that makes no difference.

Maybe we could exclude the indy for a year. I know that it's against tradition of including all original cars. It's just a thought... There are other PG cars,

[Cas]

In all honesty, I love the Indy with its PG and all. I do like it when somebody finds a trick on a track I made, including those that involve PG. PG results in some spectacular replays at times.

[Overdrijf]

I had an idea unrelated to car bonuses but with the same focus of preventing too many last minute powergear surprises: Side competition proposal: Powergear Cup.