Cars and rules for 2024

[alanrotoi]

A couple of years ago we discused about Pole Position. Maybe we can resume the discussion:

LTB is a very enjoyable fight. Sometimes it is a duel and sometimes it's a 3 or 4 pipsqueaks fight. I think we should extend this "side game" to more positions.
For example every position has a value the closer to the 1st place the better. It should encourage pipsqueaks to keep the best position possible and not only the 1st place.

That... could actually work. Maybe like some kind of separate scoring systems that hands out like 10 "pole points" for each 24 hours in first place, 8 for each 24 hours in second place etc or something someting, and at the end of the season the leading time bonuses are distributed in one big swoop, either by dividing your total pole points by some big number and rounding the result down (or up, or just the regular way) or by giving the person with the highest number of pole points 12 LTB points, the next person 11 or whatever etc.

The biggest downside of this concept is that like anything I kind of like it's overly complex, which makes it hard to see what it does for you, and that makes it easy not to care.

I do like the idea of more motivation to race before the silent days though. I could use that.

[Duplode]

I'm not particularly fond of the current LTB system either, and will probably be happy with any take on reforming it as long as it doesn't increase the overall weight of LTB on the season scoreboard. On the alternatives to LTB suggested here:

• I really like @Argammon 's checkpoints idea. It's worth mentioning that it already had a pilot implementation years ago, in Mark L. Rivers' SDR -- a successful one, as far as I remember. There would be some details to consider (for instance: is there room for two checkpoints within the month?), but I guess we can figure them as we go along.
• @alanrotoi 's extended pole points suggestion has potential as well. The system is similar in spirit to podium time bonuses, which were used without incident in late-period USC. The main choice is how far down the scoreboard do the bonuses extend -- I guess it comes down to balancing reach and complexity of the system.

I like this line of thought, let's pull it in a strange direction:

- LTB applies only to amateurs, but gives global scoreboard points
- LTB gives one point every 100 hours (up to 6 per race, most likely 5)
  (alternatively, LTB gives 3 points every 240 hours, again up to 6 per race)

What happens?

I broadly like the idea of this Amateur League LTB system. Two notes for now:

• If there's no replacement for LTB outside of the Amateur League, we don't know how much more hiding there will be from pipsqueaks who would otherwise be fighting for LTB. Maybe that's one of those things we gotta try once to see what happens, though.
• As @KyLiE suggests, 5-6 points per race is too much. Over the last couple of years, the median number of points obtained by the Amateur race winner was 6.5, so sharing such a large amount of LTB per race could easily unbalance the season scoreboard midfield fights. If the goal is making the LTB awarding more granular, we could just use fractional points, now that they have been normalised by the 2023 scoring changes: half a point for each 120 hours sounds like a reasonable starting figure to me.

[Daniel3D]

Two things that come to mind.
The public replays are a treasure to less experienced player.
So what about a whole ltb point at the end of public days for most leading hours to have some incentive to share secrets.
Then two 7day checkpoints of 0.5 points.
Coming at a total of 2 point to divide.

For the checkpoints. In the last 24 hours before the checkpoint the option to hide your time to keep it fair, just like the end of the race.

I think that this would take the pressure down.
But still ensure 'busy' public days

[Argammon]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

@Daniel3D: I think there is little difference between your system and the status quo. During the public days the "pros" would still create unbeatable replays again resulting in only the "pros" getting leading time points. Two checkpoints in the second half would give the pros a bit of rest but not much. I still doubt anyone but the pros would be able to gain these checkpoint points. I understand your concern that "the public replays are a treasure to less experienced player". Under my system, the less experienced players could learn from the pros after the first checkpoint.

@dreadnaut: I am bad at reading between the lines and am not sure whether your suggestion was serious. That being said, I strongly prefer it to the status quo. My preferences aside, it would make it far too easy for strong amateurs to beat intermediate pros. 

@Overdrijf mentioned on telegram that he would like to gain bonus points too which indeed is a weakness of my system. It makes it easier for new players to get bonus points, but the intermediate players still have it tough. I think we should work on that aspect.

[Spoonboy]

As an amateur aiming for success and promotion, points are often on my mind, though individual race success is probably my main motivation.
I tend to build my technique for any given track quite gradually, so I've never considered ltb points very much. I'm probably more able to refine my best lap method sooner in the race than I used to be, but the proposed changes would certainly require a change in the way I approach things.

Not necessarily a bad thing; I welcome any change that attempts to improve our ZakStunts experience. As long the bonus points for this don't outweigh too much the other point sources I aim for, for instance +1 for finishing in top 6. It still needs to be worth the effort for those not on the top step.

[Daniel3D]

Ok. After reading the comments above and some of the sentiments on telegram I've thought about the following.

Three checkpoints for 1 LTB.

• First week for top divers but not excluding anyone (to invite sharing tricks, can hide replay until week ends).
• Second week (excluding seasonal top 6) (replays are made public. Can Opt out)
• Third week only amateur league.

That would make it theoretically possible for an amateur to get all three points. But that's not likely to happen.
If it does he should gain 2xp 😉

EDIT:: returned my proposal to top 6 because I feel more comfortable with that.

[alanrotoi]

It looks good. Anyway top 4 would be unfair for 3rd and/or 4th places since only top 2 are earning more than 90% of the ltb. Maybe the division would be a superpodium of top 2 and then a top 3 podium of 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.

Last year the superpodium was args and dups. Before of that it was dups and me and before it was ctg and dups. You cover the las 4 years with that. Last year kylie and me stole what ltb we could but only that. The same for 2022: kylie and frieshansen. There is a pattern we can take advantage of: the system adapted to our behaviour.

[Argammon]

Ok. After reading the comments above and some of the sentiments on telegram I've thought about the following.

Three checkpoints for 1 LTB.

• First week for top divers but not excluding anyone (to invite sharing tricks, can hide replay until week ends).
• Second week (excluding seasonal top 4) (replays are made public. Can Opt out)
• Third week only amateur league.

That would make it theoretically possible for an amateur to get all three points. But that's not likely to happen.
If it does he should gain 2xp 😉

I like your proposal. However, I would suggest changing the order of checkpoints. I think the first week should be the amateur week so that the amateurs have some time to discover tricks by their own. Finding tricks and shortcuts is half of the fun of Zakstunts.   Under the current system, the amateurs miss out on that since they just copy from the professionals.

[Daniel3D]

They are only revealed after the first week. So the amateurs are free to stumble in the dark that time.
And I learned most from watching replays. In 30 years fumbling on my own I didn't discover much. I like looking for them. But it very nice to have a cheat sheet available.

[Duplode]

[...] and... Ford Ranger? Monster Truck? Interceptor?

Out of those options, I think I'd go with the Monster Truck. Alternatively, we could bring in the Ford Thunderbird for the "proper slow car" role. The Interceptor is a fun car, but it can do much faster lap times than the alternatives mentioned for this slot.

It looks good. Anyway top 4 would be unfair for 3rd and/or 4th places since only top 2 are earning more than 90% of the ltb. Maybe the division would be a superpodium of top 2 and then a top 3 podium of 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.

More broadly, I feel stratifying according to the top X on the (previous?) season scoreboard has a moderate to high chance of missing the mark. For instance, one possible failure mode is that if Renato shows up for 2024 we'll probably regard one of those bonus bans as having been wasted.

[Daniel3D]

It looks good. Anyway top 4 would be unfair for 3rd and/or 4th places since only top 2 are earning more than 90% of the ltb. Maybe the division would be a superpodium of top 2 and then a top 3 podium of 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.

The reason I originally chose top 6 is to split the LTB points between 'top' 'midfield' and 'amateur'
The top 6 was chosen out of the amateur xp rules. A top 6 gives xp, so I followed that line.
A LTB battle midfield could be interesting. Just like one for the amateur league.
Those in position 3-6 may not benefit from this. But neither do the pro drivers at position 9 and lower. You can't please everyone. No solution will be fair to all.

[alanrotoi]

Out of those options, I think I'd go with the Monster Truck. Alternatively, we could bring in the Ford Thunderbird for the "proper slow car" role. The Interceptor is a fun car, but it can do much faster lap times than the alternatives mentioned for this slot.

I agree. If we need to fill the "slow cars" tier Monster Truck or Thunderbird are good. Also Lola if you want an INDY no PG being around.

[dreadnaut]

Almost final car list:

- Unless @Ryoma is against it, the Lancia Stratos returns to the tracks
- We all miss Zapper's Ferrari F40, back for a season or two
- Alan's Lola Cosworth Indy to replace the McLaren MP4, and...
- his Ford Thunderbird

One slot still uncertain, but I'd like to bring one more designer to the competition

- Keep Overdrijf's Mercedes from last year
- ZR1-GT3 by Duplode
- Siluro for something very different?

It'll be tricky to set the bonuses right 😅

[Daniel3D]

The Stratos deserves another chance regardless of personal sentiment. Maybe it can re-enter at the bonus it left with?
Zapper's Ferrari F40, Alan's Lola Cosworth Indy and his Ford Thunderbird are also good choices.
I'd vote for ZR1-GT3 by Duplode to complete the pack.

[Duplode]

One slot still uncertain, but I'd like to bring one more designer to the competition

- Keep Overdrijf's Mercedes from last year
- ZR1-GT3 by Duplode
- Siluro for something very different?

For different reasons, I like all three of those options  Worth noting the Siluro Turbo does not feel much like a DTM car or, say, the Caterham -- handling can get tricky in fast tracks, in a way that actually reminds me a bit of the GT3.