Poetry Fanats 2008

[Krys TOFF]

do we have a published poet amongst us? 
http://www.inlibroveritas.net/auteur2277.html

Yep, that's me. I talked about it already in this topic.

[Krys TOFF]

To play God. Human is more than animal - and we are getting closer and closer to be perfect.

Yes, human is more than animal, because we are the only living beeings killing other living beeings just for pleasure, or for political/religious reasons. Great evolution. Soon, we will be able to kill without beeing soiled by blood splashing of the one we kill, it will be perfection.

I love science, but imagination and poetry are also part of what we are.

[Krys TOFF]

If you don't have to hurry, you get more relaxed.

Frankie Goes To Holywood - Relax

Relax don't do it
When you want to to go to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to suck it to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come

OK, it's a sex song, but doing sex is also a good way to get relaxed after you did it.

[Akoss Poo a.k.a. Zorromeister]

We can already make life in a lab.

And we can already make love in a lab. 

By the way do not believe in the maker, and nor in the evolution. Some small very important steps remained unanswered (e.g. how life started in mixture of substances), and I do not believe that everything we know, we think, we feel, we remember, everything which lift mankind over the animal world is coded in DNS. Once I started to write several questions which in my opinion, can't be answered by evolution. Quite a lot of questions were gathered together in that file. But I don't believe in tales either, so I don't believe in God, and I am an atheist.

By the way have you heard about the tribe of dogons?

About poems and poetry: I think it has a meaning to write your feelings into a poem, but I don't think that there's anything art in it. A poem can be more beautiful than the other, but not because of there's for example more metaphor in it. It's not art and it's not beautiful to write your feelings into a poem in a more hidden way. A poem is good and has a meaning until it can be comprehended only one way. In literature this kind of poems are very rare. Literature teachers teach that the poet thought x when he wrote that line, but nobody is sure about this, only the literature "science" thinks that. You can be sure about that line means something other, but it's not accepted if you write that in school when you're writing a test. Until things like this can happen, there's absolutely no art and no meaning in writing poems which are considered a valuable poem for the literature "science".

I rather hate art than non natural scientific sciences. Other sciences can be useful, too: philosophy helps you to choose a way to think, grammar helps you to learn other languages, history helps mankind to avoid previously made mistakes. But a simple white plate is as useful to eat from as one from earlier centuries with a very famous and complicated design. A simple poem (like my one and only poem was from 1996) is as suitable to express your thoughts than a complicated one. There's no use of knowing more and more dances, you can move your body and get rid of your weekly tension in a disco or in a concert, too. Being more sophisticated is the bigger asslicker of this world you are. Who cares who played in x film, who wrote y poem, who was the king of z country in 1800 etc etc...

I hate this world...

[CTG]

Akoss is based on insticts, nothing more.

[BonzaiJoe]

We can already make life in a lab.

About poems and poetry: I think it has a meaning to write your feelings into a poem, but I don't think that there's anything art in it. A poem can be more beautiful than the other, but not because of there's for example more metaphor in it. It's not art and it's not beautiful to write your feelings into a poem in a more hidden way. A poem is good and has a meaning until it can be comprehended only one way. In literature this kind of poems are very rare. Literature teachers teach that the poet thought x when he wrote that line, but nobody is sure about this, only the literature "science" thinks that. You can be sure about that line means something other, but it's not accepted if you write that in school when you're writing a test. Until things like this can happen, there's absolutely no art and no meaning in writing poems which are considered a valuable poem for the literature "science".

I rather hate art than non natural scientific sciences. Other sciences can be useful, too: philosophy helps you to choose a way to think, grammar helps you to learn other languages, history helps mankind to avoid previously made mistakes. But a simple white plate is as useful to eat from as one from earlier centuries with a very famous and complicated design. A simple poem (like my one and only poem was from 1996) is as suitable to express your thoughts than a complicated one. There's no use of knowing more and more dances, you can move your body and get rid of your weekly tension in a disco or in a concert, too. Being more sophisticated is the bigger asslicker of this world you are. Who cares who played in x film, who wrote y poem, who was the king of z country in 1800 etc etc...

I hate this world...

Okay, you moved into literature criticism, that was not very careful of you

First of all, I think that all of your post is tainted with a general hate or dissatisfaction caused by something that has nothing to do with what you are actually writing about. I can't be sure about this, but your post looks like it. If it's the case, don't let everything be overshadowed! It is essential to fight hate using the beauty that still hasn't been tainted.
Secondly, about poetry:
"Literature teachers" don't care what the poet thought when he wrote the poem. That is a biographical question, not a literary question, and only people who haven't studied literature will ask it. There is no way to find out what the author thought, and really it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters, and the only thing that people like myself who study literature care about is the actual text. What is expressed in the text? What does the text do? What can we draw from the text?
Generally, all literature can be divided, if one wishes, into two realms: form and content. In prose, form is not so important, but in poetry it is dominant. That is one of the things that divide prose from poetry. The enjoyment of the content is generally intellectual, and the enjoyment of the form is simpler, more emotional. You seem to disregard this second enjoyment (why? It would seem to be something the snobs you yourself describe would do), which of course greatly demeans the total output of the poem, which is a combination of these two values, hopefully heavily interacting.
But let's for the moment look only at the content of a poem or prose. I agree then with your basic idea: there is no reason to write something in a complicated way if it could be written in a simple way instead. Then the complicated way can still be good, but the simple way would be better, as it has better chances of being understood, and is easier to read. But I really don't believe that everything can be expressed simply. And I am very grateful that it can't, for what a boring world that would then be! I find that simple poetry can be good, but in the long run, you've read it all (as it can only express rather simple things), and that's when complicated poetry becomes more interesting. The objective of good complicated poetry is to express things in life that can't be expressed simply. Things that can't be expressed without metaphors. The world is full of those things. And it even becomes fuller of them because poets invent new concepts using metaphors, imagery, meters etc. I love this! It makes the world richer and it broadens my horizon.

Some small examples from music:

GOOD, SIMPLE:

"I know it's over
and it never really began
but in my heart it was so real" (even though this contains one metaphor, the "heart" metaphor, it is simple and strong)

(Morrissey, The Smiths - I Know It's Over)

BAD, SIMPLE:

"anytime that you're feeling restless
take a deep breath and let it go
only know that it leaves me breathless
anytime that you're low" (this is crap for so many reasons I don't even know where to start. But at least it rhymes )

(Andy Bell, Erasure - How My Eyes Adore You)

BAD, COMPLICATED:

"you'll see your problems multiply
if you continually decide
to faithfully pursue
the policy of truth" (might as well have said: "lie, or you'll get more trouble". Full of useless fluff which does make the form better, but at too high an expense content-wise)

(Martin Gore, Depeche Mode - Policy Of Truth)

GOOD, COMPLICATED:

"So this is permanence
Love's shattered pride
What once was innocence
turned on its side" (is there a way to express the same simply? No. Is it something worth expressing? Yes.)

(Ian Curtis, Joy Division - Twenty-Four Hours)

[CTG]

All of them are BAD.

[Chulk]

Hopefully we aren't getting closer to being perfect in your eyes.

I hope we will. Imagine a lot longer high-tech life - you would have 200 years to make music and read books...

Science is supposed to improve life quality, not only delaying dead. If art makes life quality better, why not take it seriously? (Yes, I know it sounds like Patch Adams, don't worry, I still feel the same way)

[Argammon]

CTG has a point here. 

[BonzaiJoe]

Well, the ones I chose as good are from lyrics that are generally regarded as some of the greatest in the history of modern music. So if you want to have a different opinion, that's fine, but difficult to take seriously. It's like if I had quoted Shakespeare and you had just written it off as bad. It says more about you than Shakespeare...

[lised]

We can already make life in a lab.

About poems and poetry: I think it has a meaning to write your feelings into a poem, but I don't think that there's anything art in it. A poem can be more beautiful than the other, but not because of there's for example more metaphor in it. It's not art and it's not beautiful to write your feelings into a poem in a more hidden way. A poem is good and has a meaning until it can be comprehended only one way. In literature this kind of poems are very rare. Literature teachers teach that the poet thought x when he wrote that line, but nobody is sure about this, only the literature "science" thinks that. You can be sure about that line means something other, but it's not accepted if you write that in school when you're writing a test. Until things like this can happen, there's absolutely no art and no meaning in writing poems which are considered a valuable poem for the literature "science".

I rather hate art than non natural scientific sciences. Other sciences can be useful, too: philosophy helps you to choose a way to think, grammar helps you to learn other languages, history helps mankind to avoid previously made mistakes. But a simple white plate is as useful to eat from as one from earlier centuries with a very famous and complicated design. A simple poem (like my one and only poem was from 1996) is as suitable to express your thoughts than a complicated one. There's no use of knowing more and more dances, you can move your body and get rid of your weekly tension in a disco or in a concert, too. Being more sophisticated is the bigger asslicker of this world you are. Who cares who played in x film, who wrote y poem, who was the king of z country in 1800 etc etc...

I hate this world...

Okay, you moved into literature criticism, that was not very careful of you

First of all, I think that all of your post is tainted with a general hate or dissatisfaction caused by something that has nothing to do with what you are actually writing about. I can't be sure about this, but your post looks like it. If it's the case, don't let everything be overshadowed! It is essential to fight hate using the beauty that still hasn't been tainted.
Secondly, about poetry:
"Literature teachers" don't care what the poet thought when he wrote the poem. That is a biographical question, not a literary question, and only people who haven't studied literature will ask it. There is no way to find out what the author thought, and really it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters, and the only thing that people like myself who study literature care about is the actual text. What is expressed in the text? What does the text do? What can we draw from the text?
Generally, all literature can be divided, if one wishes, into two realms: form and content. In prose, form is not so important, but in poetry it is dominant. That is one of the things that divide prose from poetry. The enjoyment of the content is generally intellectual, and the enjoyment of the form is simpler, more emotional. You seem to disregard this second enjoyment (why? It would seem to be something the snobs you yourself describe would do), which of course greatly demeans the total output of the poem, which is a combination of these two values, hopefully heavily interacting.
But let's for the moment look only at the content of a poem or prose. I agree then with your basic idea: there is no reason to write something in a complicated way if it could be written in a simple way instead. Then the complicated way can still be good, but the simple way would be better, as it has better chances of being understood, and is easier to read. But I really don't believe that everything can be expressed simply. And I am very grateful that it can't, for what a boring world that would then be! I find that simple poetry can be good, but in the long run, you've read it all (as it can only express rather simple things), and that's when complicated poetry becomes more interesting. The objective of good complicated poetry is to express things in life that can't be expressed simply. Things that can't be expressed without metaphors. The world is full of those things. And it even becomes fuller of them because poets invent new concepts using metaphors, imagery, meters etc. I love this! It makes the world richer and it broadens my horizon.

Some small examples from music:

GOOD, SIMPLE:

"I know it's over
and it never really began
but in my heart it was so real" (even though this contains one metaphor, the "heart" metaphor, it is simple and strong)

(Morrissey, The Smiths - I Know It's Over)

BAD, SIMPLE:

"anytime that you're feeling restless
take a deep breath and let it go
only know that it leaves me breathless
anytime that you're low" (this is crap for so many reasons I don't even know where to start. But at least it rhymes )

(Andy Bell, Erasure - How My Eyes Adore You)

BAD, COMPLICATED:

"you'll see your problems multiply
if you continually decide
to faithfully pursue
the policy of truth" (might as well have said: "lie, or you'll get more trouble". Full of useless fluff which does make the form better, but at too high an expense content-wise)

(Martin Gore, Depeche Mode - Policy Of Truth)

GOOD, COMPLICATED:

"So this is permanence
Love's shattered pride
What once was innocence
turned on its side" (is there a way to express the same simply? No. Is it something worth expressing? Yes.)

(Ian Curtis, Joy Division - Twenty-Four Hours)

1) I think you have to know the song (how he sings it, the music and so on), to see these as great lines. They are okay, but "alone" they are not among his best...I think
2) I actually don't think it's THAT bad. It's not a poem, but I think it quite sweet.
3) Yes that is close to very bad
4) I'm not really sure about these. Guess I have to read it some more times or hear the song.

[BonzaiJoe]

Yes, admittedly all of the examples are small fragments of lyrics. I didn't want to bore you with the whole things, but if you wish, I shall gladly paste them in their fullness.

[CTG]

* CTG marks this topic as read from now...

[lised]

Yes, admittedly all of the examples are small fragments of lyrics. I didn't want to bore you with the whole things, but if you wish, I shall gladly paste them in their fullness.

No...it was just to try to explain (to CTG) why the lyrics from I Know It's Over may not look as good as the really are

[BonzaiJoe]

I know Lise I didn't think you would be bored with Moz or Curtis lyrics, but the others would.